The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance, and the first question is from David Melding.

Spending Commitments for the Rhondda Valley

David Melding AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's spending commitments for the Rhondda valley in 2020? OAQ55046

Rebecca Evans AC: Our draft budget delivers on our promises to the people of Wales, including in the Rhondda valley. We are investing £284 million across Rhondda Cynon Tafthrough our band B twenty-first century schools programme; £2.7 million in expanding Welsh-medium childcare, and the new rail franchise is delivering enhanced services.

David Melding AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Indeed, it's rail and other public transport that I wanted to talk about. And I do hope that Transport for Wales will make it a consistent priority to improve the services, both the extent of them and the facilities on them, so that the Valleys, and their wonderful potential of highly skilled people, are able to access well-paid jobs, and, also, that the foundation economy within the Valleys really is expressed to its fullest, as we've had some good news there in the recent past. But, traditionally, infrastructure spending has just not been high enough in places like the Rhondda Valleys.

Rebecca Evans AC: I completely agree with David Melding that rail lines, particularly into Cardiff, but also elsewhere from the Valleys, are absolutely crucial to opening up people's prospects for employment. And that's why we're investing £738 million to transform the Valleys lines to Trehebert, Aberdare, Merthyr Tydfil, Rhymney and Coryton, electrifying 172 kilometres of track, and upgrading infrastructure to enable improved journey times and more trains every hour, and to provide a metro-style service by December 2020. But, in the meantime, from 15 December, Transport for Wales increased capacity for thousands of extra rail commuters a week, whilst introducing additional trains right across the Wales and Borders rail network, and that represents an increase of 10 per cent capacity for service users. So, I think a good start, but, certainly, lots of ambition and lots more to do.

Leanne Wood AC: As this Senedd knows, I'm a big champion of the Rhondda tunnel project. I'm also a member of the society that is seeking to reopen this engineering marvel. I'm supportive because the potential for the Rhondda and Afan Valleys is huge if the project can be brought to fruition. If it could be linked with leisure activities, such as the excellent mountain biking and road biking that Rhondda and Afan have to offer, not to mention the prospect of a zip wire attraction nearby in Rhigos, the potential for attracting visitors and boosting the local economy is vast.
Unfortunately, we've got the same stumbling block in place as we had when I first began raising this project many, many years ago, and that's the question of ownership. The people driving the project are crying out for the Welsh Government and/or Rhondda Cynon Taf council to step up and take ownership of this asset on behalf of the people, so that it can progress to the next stage of development—the grant-giving process. Without the issue of ownership resolved, applying for those grants can't really happen. So, the estimated cost implications of taking ownership of the tunnel in its current state is next to nothing. In fact, it comes with an offer, a one-off offer, of a £60,000 payment from the current owners, Highways England.
So, can you therefore tell us whether or not there is a financial reason for the Welsh Government not taking ownership of the Rhondda tunnel?

Rebecca Evans AC: Welsh Government shares your enthusiasm for the Rhondda tunnel, and support for the society. My husband's a Tynewydd boy, and we've got family in Blaencwm, so I very much look forward to one day being able to potentially cycle through the Rhondda tunnel. So, you certainly have my support, and the society has my support. I do know that there are discussions, as you say, underway with Highways England, to better understand the asset that we would be taking control of, because, clearly, some funding does need to come with that, and those discussions as yet are ongoing. I believe it's my colleague Lee Waters who leads on that, and I'll be sure that we do provide you with the very latest on that.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Public Services in Flintshire

Jack Sargeant AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government budget for 2020-21 supports the funding of public services in Flintshire? OAQ55032

Rebecca Evans AC: The budget invests in all parts of Wales to support our public services, including a £20 million boost for the north Wales metro, continued investment in Flintshire for band B of the twenty-first century schools programme, and a range of active travel paths. The local government settlement also provides a 3.7 per cent increase for Flintshire.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you for the answer, Minister. As you know, I've spoken in this Chamber before about the pressures that continued austerity places on local government. Decisions made in Westminster have a huge impact on the ground in Flintshire. Now, many of us are disappointed at the news that the UK Government, post election, have no intention of keeping their promise to end austerity. The impact of austerity can be seen on the very streets of Deeside. Minister, as I have said before, budget lines like the housing support grant are absolutely vital if councils are to mitigate the impact of austerity. This funding allocated by this grant is struggling to keep with the need. Would you look at the possibility of finding additional funds for this grant, or provide councils like Flintshire County Council with additional cash, to help support the most vulnerable in our communities?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Jack Sargeant for his question, and for his support for services for homeless people. He knows that, this year, we've maintained the level of funding in the housing support grant at £126.8 million. And I think that our record in Wales does compare very favourably with that across the border, where Supporting People is concerned. Because the budget there was de-hypothecated, leading to significant cuts in the service, according to the National Audit Office. But, as the Member knows, we're currently going through the scrutiny phase now of the 2020-21 budget, and I am listening carefully. And I know that there have been some messages about Members' priorities, which have been coming through loud and clear. So, I'll certainly seek—when I do lay the final budget, in that final budget debate—to recognise where my priorities would be, should there be additional revenue coming forth from the 11 March budget from the UK Government.

Mark Isherwood AC: In November 2018, Flintshire County Council launched its #BacktheAsk campaign, in full council, receiving full cross-party support,
'to take the fight down to the Welsh Government in Cardiff to get a fair share of national funds'.
Its leader, who happens to be a member of your party, subsequently said the council is seeking a recognition of how the formula impacts on the council's low-funded position, when compared to the majority of councils in Wales. One of the councils then received the largest cuts in Wales in 2019-20. In October, a letter came to you, and other Ministers, signed by the leader and all party leaders—all group leaders—stating,
'We still contend that as a low-funded council per capita under the local government funding formula we are more exposed than most'.
In the draft budget, you then gave them the third lowest settlement in Wales. Senior councillors in Flintshire have told me in recent weeks that they don't want to openly challenge the funding formula, on the basis that, in order to gain, other councils would have to receive less, and they wouldn't receive external support. However, how do you respond to the letter you've received from council leaders in north Wales, signed by all leaders, of all parties, stating that the benefits of your provisional settlements in the draft budget are not shared sufficiently fairly, and leave most of the councils in the north with a settlement significantly below the net cost of pressures, inflation, and demographic change?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, of course, the core revenue funding that we provide to local authorities every year is distributed according to relative need, using a formula that takes into account a wealth of information about the demographic, physical, economic, and social characteristics of those authorities. And as Mark Isherwood has recognised, that funding formula is developed in consultation with local authorities, through the distribution sub-group.
What I will say is that Flintshire's settlement is a reflection of a range of less favourable financial redistributional movements in formula indicators, such as those on low-income support, so those who are not in employment aged 65 and over. And also, nursery and primary pupil numbers are also relatively low. But the authority does see a financially favourable movement on those on income support who are aged 18 to 64. So, these are the kinds of features that deliver the funding settlement that Flintshire has had. And I would say, 3.7 per cent is a very good settlement, after a decade of austerity. And I do find it a bit rich to be having to listen to Conservative Members talking to me about cuts to local authorities, given the fact that we've had 10 years of austerity, and our budget next year is still £300 million lower than it was a decade ago.
So, as the Minister for Housing and Local Government has said on many occasions, and as have I, we are very open to having those discussions with local authorities, and it's for local councillors to, in the first instance, have that discussion. And I don't think that local councillors should feel concerned in any way about discussing their legitimate issues with their peers.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. In discussing the draft budget yesterday, quite some attention was given to the very important issue of decarbonisation. So, what are the Government's priorities in terms of encouraging decarbonisation in transport in Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Our Government's priorities in terms of decarbonisation are very much taken on the advice that we take from the UK Committee on Climate Change, which does, as you say, recognise transport alongside housing as those two areas where Welsh Government does need to be making, or putting our efforts. So, you'll see that we've invested £430 million already—well, by the end of next year—in the south Wales metro. And that really does reaffirm a major commitment to carbon reduction.
Trains running on lines north out of Cardiff will be 100 per cent electric traction, with the electricity sourcedfrom 100 per cent renewable sources. And the budget, obviously, continues to invest in the electric car infrastructure, although I do appreciate that we are at an early stage on that piece of work.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And that's where I want to go next, because yes, you are at a very early stage—a very early stage indeed—in terms of the investment that should be happening on a wide scale in terms of a charging network for electric vehicles. I look forward to participating in a debate here in the Chamber this afternoon on how to encourage the use of electric vehicles through the planning system. But in our budget agreement two years ago, your Government agreed to a Plaid Cymru request to invest £2 million in a national charging network. Was that spent, and, if it was, on what?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'll have to give you the reassurances that I will discuss with my colleague the Minister for Economy and Transport that that was spent, but, as we've discussed previously, I've been very clear with my colleagues that they need to be updating Plaid Cymru on the progress towards those items that we did jointly agree in our budget, and I will endeavour to provide that update to you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I have to say that it's been a cause of great frustration for me, having succeeded in reaching that agreement, to see these delays in spending the money. In a written response I received in November on Government expenditure over the past five years on charging infrastructure, we see that as little over £0.5 million is provided in grants to the councils of Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshireand Swansea back in May last year, and a little more allocated in September. Two million pounds wasn't much as it was, but it was very important to have that funding in place in order to give this sector a boost.
But do you accept that spending only half of that throughout the whole of Wales on public charging points up until the end of last year is a proof of the Government's failure in turning spending pledges into reality? And if that's your attitude towards the charging network, doesn't that pose some very grave questions about the pledges made more broadly now in terms of tackling climate change and the willingness and ability of Government to turn those plans into reality?

Rebecca Evans AC: I would disagree with that, because I think that when we do make pledges, then we keep them. So, this budget that I have published now delivers on our major pledges that we made at the last election. So, it delivers on the 100,000 apprenticeships for all ages across the term of this Assembly; it delivers on doubling the amount that people can keep before paying for social care; it delivers on providing small businesses with support for their rates; and it delivers on all of those other items that were our key pledges, and so we can go to people next time, saying that we did deliver on those pledges.
Insofar as electric vehicles are concerned, it is a very important issue and I'm pleased that you've secured the debate for it this afternoon. I think that there's a lot that the market needs to do yet. So, Mike Hedges, in the debate yesterday, was just reminding us that different kinds of vehicles will require different kinds of chargers. Now that, clearly, seems to me to be problematic.
Just this week, the European Union has put into law a requirement that phone chargersfor whichever kind of device, be they Android or Apple, will now need to be the same. That's good news for consumers. I don't know why we can't explore what we can do that could be good news for consumers to make this easier.

The Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, yesterday saw a debate brought to this Chamber on the draft budget. Of course, key to placing the Welsh economy on a better footing is to better support Wales's small businesses. Can you tell us how this draft budget proposes to help the 95 per cent of Welsh businesses that are small and micro, employing, in many cases, under nine people each?

Rebecca Evans AC: Certainly. The budget sets out our commitments to supporting businesses, particularly small and medium enterprises, through our support for business rates. You'll know that, in Wales, around half of businesses pay no rates at all thanks to Welsh Government support, and that compares very favourably with across the border in England, where only around a third receive that level of support.

Nick Ramsay AC: Minister, you are right to say that there are a number of businesses that pay no rates at all. I visited Chepstow high street recently and on one street there, there are a number of businesses that aren't paying rates. Unfortunately, in the same street, there are then businesses that are of a very similar size but may fall into a different zone that find themselves clobbered with really high rates of business rates relative to the size of the business. So, would you agree with me that there's an argument here for reviewing this whole system to make sure that it's fairer?
If you look at land transaction tax for non-commercial properties over £1 million and business rates, it seems to be that these are outstripping our counterparts in Scotland and England at the moment—an issue I raised yesterday. So, could you undertake to look again at business rates? They are a tax, effectively, and they are affecting many of our particularly small businesses, which are the backbone of the economy.

Rebecca Evans AC: We are currently looking at the future of local taxes, so looking at business rates and council tax, in partnership, to explore whether there is some local government finance reform that needs to be undertaken. We've undertaken a suite of research to help us with that, including what would the implications be if we were to move to a land value tax, for example; looking at the implications of potential revaluation, who would be the winners and losers; and then also some work that looks at the implications of universal credit, specifically on the council tax side of local taxation. So we're certainly bringing together a suite of research from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, from Bangor University and elsewhere, which we'll be publishing in a series of documents over the course of the coming three months, I imagine, and they'll be available for all colleagues to explore in terms of exploring a potential better way to do local taxation. What I will say is that we don't want to introduce reform for the sake of reform, but I think that there certainly is a case to introduce some further fairness and some further coherence into the system.

Nick Ramsay AC: I would say 'A good Conservative position there: reform not for the sake of reform', but I take it in the spirit that you meant it. I'm pleased that that work is going on. As I said, I only recently visited Chepstow high street, where it seemed to me grossly unfair that, on one street, because of the way business rates work and because of the zoning system, you can have businesses opposite or virtually adjacent to each other on a street that are either paying no rates at all or paying quite inflated rates. So I hope that will be looked at.
Minister, Rhun ap Iorwerth, in his opening questions, made some very good points about the green economy, particularly in relation to electric charging. You were proud to say yesterday that your budget was a green budget, and I think all of us want to see an effective green budget and green budgeting within Wales. As I've said, to all intents and purposes, business rates are a tax and we do need to make sure they're competitive. Do you think that, at the time of moving towards setting greener budgets, this is a good time to look again at the way that businesses in Wales are taxed and maybe to look more at moving towards a green taxation-type economy, where we shift the burden from businesses that might be small but might actually be quite environmentally friendly to businesses that might not be in order to encourage them to do better? In terms of your budget yesterday, you called it a green budget, but I haven't seen much evidence yet that you're looking at changing the way that structures such as business rates and other taxes work to make sure that we do, on the ground, help businesses that are doing their bit for the environment.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, we're not proposing major changes to either council tax or non-domestic rates in the next financial year. What we are proposing is to gather that research and that evidence base in order to inform our thinking for the years forward.But, I'm particularly interested in a discussion that I had with the cross-party group on small shops, which was chaired by your colleague Janet Finch-Saunders recently. We talked about the value of small and medium-sized enterprises, and in this case we were particularly talking about the high street. The discussion turned to what, if we were to look afresh at business rates, we would we be requiring. Is there a better way to tie business rates to the kind of issues that we have in our economic contract? How would we, perhaps, factor in fair work or decarbonisation and so on? We don't want to create a hugely laborious, difficult and complicated system, but I think that it is only fair to think about things differently, including in terms of the green agenda as well.

Brexit Party spokesperson, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Stepping back from the specifics of this budget, and the particular difficulties that we've had with the timing of the UK budget relative to our own, what view does the finance Minister take about how our budget process works in the round? How well, or otherwise, does it compare to what we might see as best practice from other legislatures, whether within the UK or internationally? Does she see a case, as we have more and more tax devolution and this institution matures, for moving to a legislative budget process?

Rebecca Evans AC: I know this is something that the Finance Committee is currently gathering evidence on, and I look forward to speaking in detail at the committee's scrutiny session on that. I think some early thoughts are, really, about the timings and the way in which this year has been particularly chaotic, it's fair to say, not least to mention the negative reductions that we just received a week before laying our second supplementary budget for this year. So, it's been incredible in many ways.
We've explored previously looking to move to a system that is more akin to that in Scotland, which would normally be about publishing the budget after the UK Government has published its budget. We explored that with the Finance Committee, and I think the Finance Committee came to the view, which we were happy to agree with, that it was better to publish it earlier in the year to give the level of certainty that we can to our partners.
One of the things that I think I'm really pleased we're able to do this year—the Minister for local government and I met with the finance sub-group of the Welsh Local Government Association just this morning—is to be able to provide greater certainty on some of those big grants that local authorities rely on. I think that's been a good lesson for us, in terms of the engagement that we've had there.
But, certainly, I think these are early days for the discussion with the committee, and I look forward to exploring it. I would say as well, in terms of the process, we're looking to embed the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 further into our budget-making process throughout the year. So, you'll be very familiar now with the five-year rolling budget improvement plan, which we've published for the first time this year to improve the way that we undertake the budget-setting process.

Mark Reckless AC: The way the process works, with a draft budget and then a period of at least several weeks of apparent consultation and consideration of what's in that draft budget before we then bring forward a final budget for consideration, I wonder whether that process gives the impression to people outwith the Welsh Government in particular who may receive, or benefit from, funding that there is a greater opportunity to change that budget in a more significant way than experience suggests may actually be the case.
I wonder how much the finance Minister expects to make changes to the draft budget when she comes with the final budget. For instance, one area where I think, on a cross-party basis, concerns have been raised is about the real-terms reduction in bus subsidy. Is that something where it's realistic for us to expect the Minister to have heard those representations and to make a change in response to them, or is it that the process allows people to think and perhaps be led on to expect a greater possibility of change, impact and influence than the budget process actually allows for more often than not?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think there is a case for earlier engagement earlier in the year, and I found the debate that the Finance Committee tabled after your listening session to be very instructive and very helpful. So, I think that's something that I would be keen to introduce on an annual basis, having the debate early on in the year. I think there's some discussion to be had with Finance Committee as to whether that should be Finance Committee-led after the committee's done its listening work, or whether it's something that the Finance Committee would prefer the Government to table, but I'm very happy to explore those issues with the committee. So, I think that early engagement is very important.
In terms of what might happen at the final budget, I'm still, really, considering what the options might be. One of the difficulties really is that just shortly after that, there'll be the UK budget, which could potentially change things again. An educated guess would be that there wouldn't be much change in terms of revenue but there might be additional capital, so I think that this is a time really for us and others to be considering what our priorities might be, should additional funding be forthcoming. But if I'm unable to make further allocations in the final budget, then I would certainly want to signal to colleagues where the priorities would be, should additional funding come forward.

Welsh Government Sponsored Bodies

Andrew RT Davies AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the financial support given to Welsh Government sponsored bodies? OAQ55024

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government delivers its aims and objectives, in part, through a number of public bodies, including Welsh Government sponsored bodies. Financial support is provided via grant-in-aid for running costs and overheads. Welsh Government sponsored bodies may also apply for hypothecated grant funding.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, finance Minister, for that answer.
Obviously, in April there was the declaration by the Welsh Government of the climate change emergency. My colleague Nick Ramsay highlighted that your comments yesterday were saying that this was a green budget. Natural Resources Wales, which is your own regulator for many of the things in the environmental field, has had a flatline budget, which in effect is a real-terms cut. Can you confirm whether you did receive any representations from the environment Minister to try and secure a real-terms increase in NRW's budget, or haven't you received any representations? And if there is to be no increase in its budget, how do you expect Natural Resources Wales to undertake the functions you've placed on it?

Rebecca Evans AC: The funding for Natural Resources Wales is a matter for the environment Minister, but in this budget the core funding is £69 million revenue in 2020-21, and there is a capital budget of £1.2 million in 2020-21. The reduction in revenue that's been seen has been due to changes in the non-recurrent EU transition funding that was awarded during 2019-20, and a recurrent interim main expenditure group movement of £0.2 million to the local environment quality budget expenditure line, and that's due to budget re-alignments. So, those do not impact at all on the direct funding to Natural Resources Wales.The capital budgets aren't rolled forward and they're based on a profile of planned expenditure agreed during 2017-18, with 2020-21 being the final year of that three-year agreement.
So, there's been no change in the grant-in-aid for Natural Resources Wales, but I think it's important to remember that they also receive an amount of money of grant funding from various parts of Welsh Government in addition to the grant-in-aid, and that's year-on-year for projects that are outside of the grant-in-aid. Examples would include the Wales coastal path or Fly-tipping Action Wales, which were previously included in the grant-in-aid when those resided in a different portfolio. That, again, is about the way that things have moved within Government.
Also, Natural Resources Wales has been in receipt of additional non-recurrent funding for various pressures. The Minister will obviously have some further detail on those in previous years, but they're also in receipt, again, of commercial income and forestry income, and that is another source of income for Natural Resources Wales. I know the Minister has to consider all the pressures right across her portfolio in the round, but the core funding is not the sole funding for Natural Resources Wales.

David Rowlands. David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: Sorry, Llywydd. The 2017-18 Government report shows the Welsh Government spent £323 million on direct funding to third sector organisations. This does not include indirect payments through such agencies as local government. Given that there are numerous instances of duplication in the delivery of third sector services—for instance, there is said to be around 48 organisations involved in looking after the homeless—is the Welsh Government convinced that this funding gives good value for taxpayers' money?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, the third sector, of course, generally, I would say, does not classify as Welsh Government sponsored bodies. When we're talking about Welsh Government sponsored bodies, they would be executive bodies such as Natural Resources Wales, the arts council, or advisory bodies such as the Welsh Medical Committee, the Welsh Optometric Committee, or tribunals such as the mental health review tribunal, Welsh language tribunal and so on. So, this wouldn't be a Welsh Government sponsored body matter, but I know that the Minister with responsibility for the third sector is always very keen to ensure that those organisations aren't duplicating, and, in fact, it's often a requirement now of grants that the proposals are brought forward in partnership with other organisations in order to ensure that those organisations are maximising their contribution but also seeking, then, to avoid that kind of duplication. But, if you have any particular grants of concern, then I'd be obviously more than happy to take a look at them.

Housing Support Grant

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 4. What consideration has the Minister given to funding the housing support grant when allocating the Welsh Government budget? OAQ55037

Rebecca Evans AC: Maintaining funding of £127 million in the housing support grant, alongside our continued investment of £18 million for tackling homelessness and other funding streams, highlights the importance we attach to providing services to the homeless, vulnerably-housed and people who need support to stay out of institutional settings.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: My appeal is simple: don't do anything in your budget that threatens expenditure on tackling homelessness. You have to maintain and increase housing support grants and Supporting People, because, behind the statistics on homelessness, there are real people. With a heavy heart, I will mention one of them. The coroner this week confirmed that Paul Daniel Hughes was the gentleman found dead in a disused building in Llangefni last month.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: My team was truly saddened to hear of Paul's passing. He'd been a regular visitor to my office. A local man, homeless, he lived in a tent on the banks of Afon Cefni for a period. My team tried to help him, and were frustrated time and time again. He was made homeless originally because of the death of his mother, or after the death of his mother. He'd been in a hostel for one time but was told to leave for apparently stealing a sandwich. He was desperate for assistance and found he just couldn't get the support he needed. Do you agree that it's people like Paul who have suffered, and in many cases lost their lives, because of spending cuts and that it's for people like Paul or because of people like Paul that we must invest properly in eradicating homelessness, and nothing but an increase in the funding available for this is acceptable?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I'm obviously very sorry to hear about your constituent, Paul. You're absolutely right that Paul's situation and those of many people like Paul is very much a result of the situation we find ourselves in, the difficulty in getting employment. Actually, bereavement is one of the most prevalent reasons that I've heard from people who I've spoken to who have been street homeless, and that's been—. That was quite an eye-opener, because it's not one of those things that people often recognise, and I think that there's some more work for us to be doing there in terms of bereavement support.
Listen, as I said to Jack Sargeant, I've heard clearly the messages from colleagues and from committee and from others and we had the opportunity to discuss this exact issue with local government this morning, and, as I say, if there is additional funding coming forth, and if there is an opportunity at the final budget, I will indicate where those priority areas will be.

Suzy Davies AC: Well, I'm very pleased to hear those last remarks, because I appreciate that while this matter was well-aired yesterday, I don't think you did square off this question about preventative budgeting, which is a weakness that's been identified in the budget you brought forward. I visited, like others, Llamau. It was a Drws Agored project, which was about helping keep young people safe at home, and, if they can't keep them safe at home, to find them new safe homes—just to summarise it. It's not cheap, but what it suffers from, as so many of these projects, is that it has no certainty of continuity. So, can you tell me what assessment you've made of the savings further down the line for Welsh Government due to the current investment in the housing support grant and how much you could save were you to increase the housing support grant at this stage?

Rebecca Evans AC: Certainty of continuity of fundingis something that we are very mindful of. It's unfortunate that the comprehensive spending review of last year didn't occur, but we do expect it to happen later on in this year, and then that should give us at least a three-year outlook for public spending, which will certainly give Government a degree of certainty, and we're always keen to provide local authorities and our other partners with as much certainty as possible, as we can, for future years.
In terms of the preventative service, clearly, supporting people and preventing people from becoming homeless is one of those major services. The legislation that we've put in place, I think, is a fantastic example of a really, really good preventative approach. Over 20,000 households now have had their homelessness prevented because of the duties that we put on local authorities. So, there are a range of things that we should employ—we should employ funding and also legislation and smart policy ideas to support people and prevent people from becoming homeless. But, as I hope I've made clear to colleagues, I have been listening to the representations that have been made.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I also welcome the comments from the Minister. Late last year, the Welsh Government consulted on the draft housing support grant practice guidance for local authorities, and the consultation sought the view on whether the arrangements set out in the practice guidance document are fit for purpose, clear, and enable commissioners and providers to fulfil the core purpose of the grant and deliver the essential support services required for intended service recipients.
Minister, are you able to inform me, then, how the Welsh Government will filter those responses in order to produce that very important final guidance document in April? And are you able to inform me of the proposed timetable for the final guidance to be published? And how will the Welsh Government work with local authorities to ensure this guidance is implanted effectively to aid the citizens of Wales and, where possible, look at the lens of improving and increasing this grant?

Rebecca Evans AC: Okay. Well, I'm afraid I'm not able to provide the detailed answer to how we are sifting and awaiting those responses, or able to give information on the timescale, but I know my colleague the Minister for local government will be able to do so, and I will ensure that you have a full response to that.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Innovative Procurement

Hefin David AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's support for innovative procurement in Wales? OAQ55059

Rebecca Evans AC: Innovative approaches to procurement are already being used to encourage creativity and deliver broad economic, social and cultural benefits to Welsh communities and citizens. We're also implementing a new procurement and commercial capability programme to build capacity and resilience across the procurement profession in Wales to encourage innovation.

Hefin David AC: I can see that the Chair of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee is in the Chamber, and so are members of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee. We will be launching and publishing our report on procurement in the foundational economy later this week, so no spoilers, but I would like to ask a question about procurement related to that.
It was clear from evidence sessions in the inquiry that the role and purpose of public services boards in relation to innovative procurement needs greater clarity. Last week—the week before last—in a debate on anchor towns that was held—a short debate that I held here—the Deputy Minister raised the role of public services boards and their role in procurement. Given the lack of clarity, can the Minister explain how she expects public services boards to engage and utilise their local supply chains in order to procure in an innovative way, particularly with relation to the foundational economy?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful to Hefin David for raising this issue and for his particular interest in it. We believe that the focus of the foundational economy accords very well with public services boards' own well-being plans, which reflect their local priorities. Many of those PSBs have identified developing the foundational economy as one of their local priorities within those well-being plans, and we've been engaging with them since last summer to explore what support we're able to give them and what help we can provide in delivering on those ambitions.
So, we convened a workshop where we explored the potential of public procurement to deliver foundational economy objectives that will help drive up local well-being. And, since that, now we've also shared a report that was produced for Welsh Government by the Centre for Local Economic Strategies with PSBs, and we've had some good discussions with them on that. I can say now that CLES has been appointed by Welsh Government to provide support to those public services boards that wish to implement progressive procurement programmes. Welsh Government is funding that piece of work. So, we've had expressions of interest from several PSBs, and there'll be an initial pathfinder procurement project to commence next month. So, we are now starting to motor ahead with the work that we're doing with the PSBs, and providing funding to get that moving.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, new ways of working in a climate of constrained budgets are indispensable for sustaining the quality and scope of service delivery. So, can I ask what Welsh Government is doing to assist local councils to identify common needs where they could benefit from innovative solutions and where shared solutions would allow more resources to be deployed?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, you'll have heard my answer to Hefin David in terms of the importance of public services boards. We're holding an engagement event tomorrow, to which all of the public services boards who have expressed an interest in this have been invited, and that will be part of the Valleys taskforce work. We expect that that will lead to a focused action plan for using procurement to deliver those foundational economies priorities for that particular region. So, we're certainly keen to do what we can to support that joint working and joint sharing of information, but also maximising their buying power.

Mandy Jones AC: Minister, the Welsh Local Government Association guidance document on the European Union and public procurement is an interesting read. It states that the EU sets out the laws under which public procurement contracts must be awarded. The laws are designed to open up the EU's market to competition, to promote free movement of goods and services and to prevent binational policies. Does the Welsh Government now welcome the new opportunities that Brexit will provide for Welsh businesses and will the guidance document now be updated?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, as a result of the terms of the withdrawal agreement that was negotiated by the EU and the UK, obviously, EU law continues to apply during the transition period. But we are looking ahead to demonstrate what our priorities will be in terms of future relationships, because, obviously, the UK will be able to enter into free trade agreements. Most of those will have procurement chapters contained within them, so we're really interested to see what we can do to ensure that we protect the interests of Wales. The areas where we will be prioritising our contributions to that debate will be on decarbonisation, social value, community benefits, the foundational economy and also the circular economy. So, those are the areas that we would like to see prioritised in any future procurement chapters within free trade agreements.

Vacant Land Tax

Vikki Howells AC: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on plans to introduce a vacant land tax for Wales? OAQ55033

Rebecca Evans AC: We're making progress with the UK Government to secure powers for a vacant land tax in Wales. The next step is a joint Exchequer committee meeting, and I will update the Assembly with further detail after that meeting has taken place.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, and I welcome that update on plans for a measure that I feel could really benefit communities like mine. The Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government provided an oral statement last week on the transforming towns agenda, where she spoke about the Welsh Government's approach to tackling issues related to landbanking. Do you agree with me, Minister, that a vacant land tax is an essential component of this, enabling the regeneration of town centres and unlocking sites for the provision of new housing?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I do. I think a vacant land tax is potentially a really exciting tool that we can have in our armoury, if you like, when we're looking to improve our high streets and beyond. I'm really pleased, now, that we seem to be making some progress with the UK Government. It's been quite difficult up to this point, but I think that we are starting to turn a corner. Of course, this is the first time that we've tested out the Wales Act 2017 in terms of devolving powers for us to make taxes within certain areas, and so I think it is important that we get the process right.
But, as Vikki says, the policy objective of a vacant land tax would be to bring idle land back into productive use, and I think it is important as well that we just put on record that we're keen not to have any unintended consequences as well. So, we'll be consulting deeply to ensure that we get the policy right.

Locum Staff

Leanne Wood AC: 7. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the value for money of using locum staff in the Welsh NHS? OAQ55060

Rebecca Evans AC: I have regular discussions withthe Minister for Health and Social Services, covering a range of financial matters within his portfolio, including those relating to the NHS staff resources, which we discussed only earlier this week.

Leanne Wood AC: We've been told by by chiefs at Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board that the accident and emergency departmentservices at the Royal Glamorgan are unsafe because of the lack of permanent consultants. The last one leaves for retirement at the end of March. The same executive board say that an entirely locum-run service is not safe. From a financial point of view, they say it would cost less to employ permanent consultants. I know from reliable sources that there are locum consultants who would be willing to take up posts on a permanent basis if they were offered flexible hours and a slightly improved package. Other boards have increased their numbers of A&E consultants in recent years, yet Cwm Taf hasn't.
Of course, the other obstacle in the way is that, while the centralisation of the A&E element of the south Wales programme remains in place, that uncertainty will remain and those posts will potentially be unattractive. It seems to me and many others, including the staff working for the NHS, that no real effort has been made to recruit permanent posts, and the whole exercise has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
As the Minister responsible for the Welsh Government's budget monitoring and management, do you share these frustrations about the reliance on expensive locum staff within the NHS, particularly when little effort seems to have been made in recent years to provide those permanent posts?

Rebecca Evans AC: Over the last three years, across Wales, we've been working collaboratively with NHS health boards and trusts to design a control framework for expenditure on agency and locum staff, and those measures include increased levels of board scrutiny, minimising the deployment of locum staff, and improving value for money through capping rates and more effective procurement. There's been an ongoing reduction in spend across Wales on medical locums following the introduction of that framework. Indeed, since the introduction of the framework, there's been an almost 30 per cent reduction in the cost of medical locums, and that releases a saving of around £300 million. But of course, that's the Wales-wide picture, and I appreciate there are specific issues relating to A&E services at the Royal Glamorgan. But I have had a discussion with the health Minister, and I have to say the issues facing the A&E services at the Royal Glamorgan are not financial issues.

And finally, question 8, Mike Hedges.

Welsh Government's Budget Priorities

Mike Hedges AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s budget priorities for 2020-21? OAQ55026

Rebecca Evans AC: The draft budget for 2020-21 delivers on our promises to the people of Wales and invests for the future of our planet, including £324 million extra for the Welsh NHS, almost £200 million extra for local government, and a new £140 million package to help tackle climate change.

Mike Hedges AC: The Minister, having heard the budget debate yesterday and having heard questions today, cannot fail to be aware of the concern across the Chamber of the need to support supported housing. I saw somebody, when I went on a visit, who had successfully not gone to hospital for five years. They'd never stayed out of hospital for one year until they'd gone into supported housing. There is widespread if not near unanimous support across this Chamber for additional funding for supported housing. Will the Minister look to give it priority during this budget round? Because it really is a matter that seems to unite almost everybody.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Mike Hedges for his contribution. I would reiterate again that I have been listening carefully to colleagues and the arguments are well made. When the appropriate point does come, I will indicate any priority areas for additional funding, should additional funding come forward.

Thank you to the Minister for Finance.

2. Questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language

The next item is questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Andrew R.T. Davies.

Safe Standing Facilities in Football Stadiums

Andrew RT Davies AC: 1. What action has the Welsh Government taken with regards to supporting the introduction of safe standing facilities in football stadiums? OAQ55022

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: The Welsh Government has not undertaken any action to support the proposal that the Member refers to.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Deputy Minister. I appreciate you and I have had discussions on this previously, and you've responded via a ministerial letter indicating that Welsh Government wouldn't be supporting such a reintroduction. It is a fact, though, that at the recent Westminster general election three parties—the Liberals, the Labour Party and the governing party, the Conservative Party—had this as a manifesto commitment. And Nigel Adams, the sports Minister, has now had a report on this very subject. Could I encourage you, Minister, to engage with the sports Minister in Westminster so that Welsh stadiums aren't left behind? We do have teams, such as Cardiff, Swansea and Newport, playing in the English football league, and it's important that, from a Government point of view, where assistance might or might not be offered, we are in those negotiations and discussions, so that stadiums in Wales do not get left behind when this proposal is enacted at Westminster.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Of course, we follow closely the developments in this area in the sports department in the UK Government, but my understanding is that the current regime ensures that the Sports Grounds Safety Authority, as the licensing authority, is responsible for admitting spectators to football grounds, which include all in the FA, Premier League and the English football league along with Wembley and Principality stadiums. Clearly, where Welsh teams participate in those leagues, they are covered when they are in stadia in England; under this legislation, they will be covered.

Mandy Jones AC: The Racecourse ground in Wrexham, north Wales, is recognised by the Guinness World Records as the world's oldest international football stadium that still hosts international matches, having hosted Wales's first home international match in 1877. Deputy Minister, many colleagues from north Wales and on all sides of the Chamber have recognised the need for development and investment in the stadium, and I recognise the work of Llyr Gruffydd in particular. [Interruption.] Apologies. With the question of safe standing in mind, Deputy Minister, this would be a perfect way to develop and upgrade the stadium while keeping the historic feel of the ground. Deputy Minister, do you believe that this is an area, on all sides, that we could work on to deliver a twenty-first century sports stadium in north Wales?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I am also aware of the representations made informally—as she is able to do as the constituency Member for Wrexham—by Lesley Griffiths. So, now we've got a coalition of Griffithses. [Laughter.]
The future of the Racecourse is the responsibility of the owners of the Racecourse, and if there are any proposals in any part of Wales for the development of further sporting activity, including football and other sports, we would be very happy to discuss it, with Sport Wales, of course, as our major body for this matter.
We have invested substantially as a Welsh Government in Colliers park, because that was the kind of facility that the Football Association of Wales wanted to see in Wrexham to mirror what happens in Newport. And we are very much guided in this case not by the ambitions of politicians, but by the interests of our sporting bodies.

State Of Palestine and Israel Peace Plan

Bethan Sayed AC: 2. What representations has the Minister made on behalf of the Welsh Government in relation to the peace plan for the state of Palestine and Israel recently advocated by the United States of America? OAQ55045

Eluned Morgan AC: Although international relations is a reserved competence, I have written to the foreign Secretary to make clear our position on this middle east peace plan. Wales stands firmly behind a rules-based international system, and firmly behind a truly equitable search for a resolution to one of the longest-running conflicts. If there are to be negotiations, this should be done in accordance with international law, established parameters, and existing UN resolutions. And it's far from clear that this is the starting point of this plan set out by President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for that. It's more comprehensive than what I thought I was going to hear today. We all know that Israel and Palestine, the conflict and the dispute, is the longest-running geopolitical problem in the world, and the inability to solve this problem has led to a broad and deeply damaging effect on the relations between the Muslim world and western countries. As you have indicated, the position of the United States with its new peace plan means that it has now abandoned even the pretence of being a neutral arbiter. The so-called peace plan outlined recently would legitimise land theft on a huge scale and mean decades of work done by the international community to try to reach a consensus on a two-state solution may get thrown away.
I understand that you've written on this particular plan, but I want to understand what further representations you will seek to make to the Prime Minister and foreign Secretary to make it clear that you will not support any further encroachment by the Israeli Government in terms of the settlements. Many of them are already illegal, as we know, and—[Interruption.] I'm sorry, I'm being heckled by Neil Hamilton. I'm trying to ask a question, which is legitimate.

Ask the question.

Bethan Sayed AC: My question, to finish, is: what are we going to do to be able to accommodate the people of Palestine and Israel so that they can live in harmony together in the future, and so that we can try to reach a peaceful solution for all that does not reflect in this plan?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. So, we have written to the foreign Secretary. I think it's really important that, whatever happens in future, it's based on international law and on equality and on ensuring that both sides have an understanding that this has got to be a mutual agreement. I think the real problem with this plan is that the Palestinians weren't in the room when it was being discussed.I think any efforts towards promoting peace in the middle east should be grabbed, but obviously we need to make sure that it's equitable and that it conforms with freedom and justice. It's amazing that even Prince Charles, who was in the Palestinian territories in recent weeks, concurred that that exactly should be the basis on which any future negotiations should take place.

Darren Millar AC: As a frequent visitor to Israel and the West Bank in recent years, I know just what a difficult conflict this is going to be to resolve, but I think we all need to be honest with ourselves in acknowledging that our ability to resolve this particular conflict is very limited. So, I ask the international relations Minister: what action can the Welsh Government take, in addition to that which it's already taken in writing to the UK Government, regarding this particular peace plan? What work could you do on the ground in order to get people talking to one another and working with one another so that we can build peace from the ground up, in many respects?
You will know that we as a party have said that we need a Wales to the world programme. That could include some work in terms of civic dialogue taking place between Wales and friends in the middle east, in both Israel and in the Palestinian territories. I think that that would be a great opportunity for us to have an even greater influence in that particular part of the world. You referred, very briefly, to the Prince of Wales's recent visit. Will you agree with me that it's visits like that that do a lot, actually, to promote the interests of the people of Wales overseas and the opportunities that that brings?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I think we have got to understand that it is the UK Government that leads in relation to foreign affairs, but also it is important that people understand the values on which we think agreements like this should be made. I do think that there is a role for us in the Welsh Government to be supportive of any steps that are going to get us closer to seeing a resolution to the middle east peace problem. I'm not sure whether starting off the way that this has started off is going to be the right path on which we are likely to get some kind of advancement in this area. But, certainly, I agree that Prince Charles going to the Palestinian Authority was probably something that was really constructive, and I think his message was very clear when he was there.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, last night, both of us attended a CollegesWales event to learn more about the upshots of Work Welsh. Again, hidden skills were acknowledged, not only within the workforce, but within the student body too. The majority of lecturers, students and apprentices noted that, in their view, they don't have any Welsh language skills or fundamental second language skills, and that they prefer to study through the medium of English only, which is disappointing.
Almost all of the students and apprentices will have attended schools in Wales, and Welsh would have been a compulsory element of their education.So, I welcome the coleg Cymraeg's proposals for further education and apprenticeships, and the work ongoing with Work Welsh, but there's a long way to go to overcome the impacts of the education system and a working environment that makes Welsh speakers shy in using the language. How will you measure the success of the scheme in FE and apprenticeships, and how long will long term be?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. It was good to see in that meeting last night. I do think that we have a problem in relation to a number of people who've been through Welsh-medium education who don't have the confidence, perhaps, to use the language, in particular in the further education colleges. And that's why this group is so essential, I think, so that we do have the coleg Cymraeg, whichencourages people to use the Welsh language. But, also, one of the things that they've done is to create ambassadors to try and get people the same age as the students to convey that message themselves. And I think that is extremely important, and a step forward.
One of the things that we have to do is to ensure that we know who can speak some Welsh, and one of the things we're doing in the education field, for example, is that we have undertaken an annual census so that we know now who in the education field can speak Welsh and is teaching in schools that aren't Welsh-medium schools. So, I do think that, ultimately, we may need to do that in these further education colleges.
I do think that Work Welsh—it is quite a new project still, and we're just starting out on this journey, but the feedback we've had is very positive, and I think that we have to give some more time to see what the impact is, and whether there's anything that we need to do to improve the way that we're undertaking this work. But what we've done to start with is to concentrate on those areas where we know that the Welsh language is completely essential, such as care and childcare and so forth.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that response. Personally, I welcome the idea of ambassadors, particularly as it was a idea Welsh Conservative idea to have them within the workplace. And if it can work in FE, then that can only be positive. Now, I accept what you said on how to proceed in this area, but one of the core elements of the programme is to secure sufficient numbers of bilingual staff to teach throughout Wales in all priority areas, such as those you've already mentioned. But the coleg Cymraeg is calling for a staff development programme on a national basis to support bilingual learning over the medium term.
Your proposal notes that 300 additional secondary school teachers will be required to teach Welsh, and another 500 to teach through the medium of Welsh by next year to be on the right track to for 2050. And it's clear that that isn't going to happen. So, it's unlikely that students and lecturers of the future will get a meaningfully different experience in terms of the use of the Welsh language after they leave school and go to college or undertake an apprenticeship. Eighteen coleg Cymraeg tutors are introducing Cymraeg Gwaith/Work Welsh, so how can you expect FE and the coleg Cymraeg to introduce a national programme and transform Welsh-medium provision in the post-16 sector when staff and students will come into that sector with skills that are no better than those they currently have?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Clearly, this is something that is a challenge for us. And I think it's important that we acknowledge that. I will be interested to read the strategy that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has launched this lunchtime to see what they foresee as the best way forward. But I do think that what's important is that we do what we can to increase the numbers in this field, and we are taking very specific steps.
I've mentioned the annual census in the workplace. Initial teacher training courses now include 25 hours of Welsh, and that is a step forward. We have Iaith Athrawon Yfory, which has an incentive of £5,000 to encourage peopleto act and to train through the medium of Welsh. There is a sabbatical scheme also. We have work in terms of collaboration with the regional consortia. We have all sorts of steps that we're already taking. There are about 15 things that we're doing to take these steps forward. I don't think that it’s one thing, and that’s why we're taking advantage of the opportunity. Each one of these, of course, will feed in, I think, ultimately, to how many people are available to work in this field.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that response, but the question remains: what does the medium term look like and what does the long term look like?
Just to conclude on that: yesterday evening, we were discussing the regional skills partnerships, and the fact that Welsh language skills have been a theme that has emerged through these partnerships. If I understand things correctly, I would expect that in the public sector, of course, because of the standards, but I know that your Welsh in business officials have recognised the need to normalise the Welsh language in parts of the private sector too. I’ve asked on this issue in the past, but what’s the emphasis of the skills partnerships, or what emphasis do they place on this?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Just to finish the previous point, I do think that we're likely to reach the targets in terms of the primary sector. I do hope that this annual census of the workforce will perhaps allow us to see whether it’s possible to move people perhaps who aren't teaching through the medium of Welsh into areas where they can teach through the medium of Welsh. We'll have to see what that census shows.
In terms of Welsh in business—and thank you for your interest in that—I do think that we have to do much more in terms of the partnerships, to ensure that they feel that they have something to offer, and that they are taking the reins. In terms of business, we don't have standards in the private sector as a whole, but I do think that perhaps we can look more at the ambassadors that you mentioned. If that works in the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, perhaps further to what we're doing with the 12 officials that we have who are going around Wales, providing advice to people, perhaps they would be able to help to see who could be champions on our behalf.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, you state in your international strategy that, and I quote,
'The Welsh Government has a network of 21 overseas offices in 12 countries'.
Will you therefore publish a specific strategy for these offices, and identify where exactly it is that our presence needs to be developed?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch. We have 21 offices around the world. They have targets that are set out. I don't think they all need strategies, but we have somebody managing those offices centrally from here in Wales. And of course, every office is going to be slightly different, because what we do in China may be very different from what we need to be doing in Germany. So, all of the offices need to be tweaked and need to be slightly different. We now give a read-out of what those activities are to the committee that monitors the work that we're undertaking within the department.

Dai Lloyd AC: Your strategy goes on to say that you will raise Wales's profile by working with Welsh diaspora, alumni and partner organisations, focusing in the first year on the USA and Japan, and identifying influential Welsh people around the world. You say also that you will create a comprehensive database of Welsh links, with an aim to create 500,000 contacts in five years. However, the international strategy doesn't go on to elaborate what exactly you'll do with those links once they've been forged. For example, will you be looking into twinning arrangements? You will recall there was a business and university enterprises trade mission from Oklahoma state here last year. And may I just say, my youngest son lives in Oklahoma—I know the state well. And they wanted a twinning arrangement: Oklahoma City with Cardiff, and their second city, Tulsa, with Swansea. Are there moves to suggest that sort of thing? And also, for example, would you be willing to look at, in the USA context again, state-level joint-working co-operation, say, with Wisconsin? Back in the day, Wisconsin had 300 Welsh language chapels. It had a huge inpouring at the time of Welsh people, as did Ohio and New York state. So, Pennsylvania—you name a US state and those 1.8 million people there of Welsh descent are liberally sprinkled everywhere. So, are you looking to forge state-level co-operation as well?

Eluned Morgan AC: I think the important thing in relation to diaspora, first of all, is we've commissioned some work on this, because there are a lot of people who are active in this space already, and the challenge for us is how to get them co-operating and working together so that they're not competing and that it's easy for people in Wales and abroad to understand where is the best platform. So, we've commissioned some work on that and we're waiting for that to come back.
But I think that, within the diaspora strategy, there will be different levels of what we're expecting to do. So, it may be that we could use some very famous Welsh people simply to shout on behalf of Wales and that would be something great in itself to raise our profile. I am pretty focused also on the economy. So, I think there will be a very clear diaspora strategy in relation to how we drive the economy and that could be how we help companies in Wales to link up with members of the diaspora abroad or even chambers of commerce or whatever—any help they can get, if they want to export. And the same thing with inward investment, it may be that we can use that as a channel. I think that will need a lot of resources. If we're going further towards what you were talking about, that would really demand a huge amount of additional resource. And I think, if I'm honest, I don't think we have the capacity within the department to take on that kind of thing. But what I would like to do is to try and create a platform where people can get on with that themselves, rather than the Government being a go-between constantly. This has got to be a strategy that is owned by the people of Wales as well.

Dai Lloyd AC: And finally, the strategy also mentioned the success of the recent Rugby World Cup in Japan in terms of promoting, and I quote:
'Wales' technology and digital, creative, healthcare and advanced manufacturing sectors'.
So, what is the Government's plans to continue to promote Wales as a place to visit and co-operate on culture in the Japanese context now, especially bearing in mind the strong interest in all things Welsh that exists in Japan? Would you, for example, consider inviting the Japanese ambassador to the Eisteddfod? And thinking of the next big sporting enterprise, which is the football—the Euro 2020 this summer—as Wales march into the finals and win that competition, what is the Welsh Government doing on the back of that anticipated success to promote Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. As it happens, this morning, I have had a meeting, along with my colleague, to talk about how we can bind the cultural and sporting assets that we have in Wales and we can use those to promote Wales internationally. So, that was an important meeting.
Part of what we're trying to do is to see how we can really work as team Wales and to build and work from each other. Certainly, the Football Association of Wales let us know today that they're very open to working with us in relation to the European cup. I think we'll probably, if we're honest, have more interest in promoting ourselves in Italy than we would in Azerbaijan, so we've got to work out what is the best way to do that. It was interesting to have a discussion on the weekend with the British ambassador to Italy, who happens to be Welsh, who is very, very keen to help us. So, we'll be working up a programme now, hopefully similar to what we did in Japan.
On top of that, one of the examples that was given this morning is that the National Museum Wales are hoping to do an exhibition in Japan in 2022, and I think that's what we need to be looking at: what is the long-term framework that we can be looking at? The Welsh National Opera work about three years out. If we know that, can we build a trade mission around that? So, it's about how we can get the best for team Wales, but that needs a bit of co-ordination and that's what we were starting to thrash out this morning.
And just in terms of inviting people here, the Japanese ambassador is coming to Wales very shortly but, on top of that, one of the projects we have organised this year is we're inviting ambassadors to Hay-on-Wye for the literature festival. So, that's going to be our first attempt to bring ambassadors here for a cultural event, where we'll have an opportunity to sell Wales on the back of that. It's probably worth just mentioning also that the German ambassador is coming to Wales next week, and that is a really important visit for us in terms of really underlining the fact that Germany is our key export market.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Question 3 [OAQ55051] has been withdrawn. Question 4, Mark Isherwood.

Overseas Countries Who Have Citizens and People Living in Wales

Mark Isherwood AC: 4. What engagement does the Minister have with overseas countries who have citizens and people living in Wales? OAQ55027

Eluned Morgan AC: International engagement takes many forms. Since taking up post, I have met with foreign ambassadors in Cardiff and in London, many of whom have large numbers of citizens in Wales. Last week, I hosted an event to celebrate the Chinese new year with the deputy ambassador and the Chinese community here in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, thank you for that. Just before Christmas, I had the pleasure of joining the festive fun as a guest at the Wrexham Polish integration support centre's Christmas party, and I've been invited to their Polish Heritage Day on 9 May. In 2017, the Polish embassy in London introduced a Polish Heritage Day to the calendar of regular events across the UK, with over 40 events initially planned, supported by Polish consulates in London, Manchester and Edinburgh. What engagement, if any, does the Welsh Government have with this agenda thus far and, if not, will you be interested in becoming engaged as this goes forward?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well,I'm very interested in particular in linking up with the Polish community, because it's one of our biggest diaspora communities in Wales. I certainly underlined that to the Polish ambassador when I met him in London recently. So, rather than waiting for them to come to Wales now, part of what I'm trying to do is to go to London, invite them to come to us, so that we can give them those clear messages. One of the things you'll see in the international strategy is we're going to be celebrating a different community every year and, certainly, one of the ones that I would want to be celebrating is the Polish community. As it happens, we're inviting the German national disapora, which is one of our largest diaspora in Wales, to come and join us to meet with the ambassador next week.

Promoting Alyn and Deeside to the World

Jack Sargeant AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government is promoting Alyn and Deeside to the world? OAQ55031

Eluned Morgan AC: The international strategy sets out the importance of having a strong offer to attract inward investment and tourism to Wales and grow our economy. North Wales, of course, including Alyn and Deeside, is a part of that offer.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. I was very pleased to welcome the First Minister and the Minister for economy to Tata Steel in my constituency last week, and it was great to hear the commitment that those at the very top of the Welsh Government have towards the steel industry, and it has to be said that that is unlike the Westminster Government—the Westminster Tory Government. Now, Tata Steel is leading the way in innovation and developing the next generation of steel products, especially in the Shotton site, and the expertise at the plant means they are the only producer in Europe who can provide an advanced three-layer product in a single pass. The guarantee that comes with this product enables them to sell it to all corners of the world, including India, Chile, Peru, Australia and right across Europe. Minister, what can the international strategy do to promote the work being done at Shotton steel, and also to promote Welsh steel for what it is—the very best?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well, I hope that the fact that the First Minister and the Minister for the economy visited with you in Shotton was testament to the fact that they very much underline the importance of this sector. I think this is an area where in Wales we do have, really, something to sell the world. We are doing some very, very innovative work, and I think there is scope for us to be promoting that. So, one of the things I'm trying to instigate is a monthly message to embassies around the world to say, 'This is the theme that we would like you to promote this year or this month', and I think it would be really useful, perhaps, for us to look at how we could do that in the context of steel, so that's certainly—. But I think it's probably also worth emphasising that, in fact, Alyn and Deeside is home to the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, and that is specifically mentioned in the strategy as one of the magnet projects to attract people to come to north Wales to invest.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, from Caergwrle castle to Gladstone's Library, from the Enbarr Shotton Point project to the wonderful work of the North East Wales Heritage Forum, which includes the Buckley Society, Quay Watermen's Association, Deeside and District Local History Society, Saltney and Saltney Ferry History Group and much more, Alyn and Deeside has very much to offer visitors from across the world. What engagement are you having or do you propose to have with the incredible North Wales Tourism group and its Go North Wales brand, which is perhaps leading the way in working to promote not only Alyn and Deeside but the region within which it sits to the world around us?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well, I hope you will have seen that, in the strategy, sustainable adventure tourism, which I very much associate with north Wales, as well as there being some great opportunities in south Wales, is something that we are specifically focused on. So, the key thing with these international strategies is how do you grab attention in the first place. And I think that's what we've been trying to say: look, actually, when it comes to sustainable, adventure tourism, Wales is the place to be. And, once they're there, then we can direct them to Gladstone's Library or whatever else. I mean, it may not be the same kind of people who want to go to Gladstone's Library and jump off a cliff, but I think the key thing is how we grab attention for ourselves initially, and that's what we're trying to do. So, there may be an opportunity for me to meet up with tourism people, but that is very much something that my colleague Dafydd Elis-Thomas leads on.

Tourism in South Wales West

Caroline Jones AC: 6. Will the Minister outline how the Welsh Government is using major events to promote tourism in South Wales West? OAQ55052

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, before I respond, I wanted to first take up this opportunity to pay tribute to Swansea councillor Sybil Crouch, who recently passed away. I know many friends and colleagues in this place and across the country held her in great esteem. Sybil was the first, and so far the only, woman to chair the Arts Council of Wales. She was a person who could easily be described as the vanguard of arts and culture, not just in the south-west, but right across Wales. I've seen tributes pouring in praising her contribution to Welsh politics and culture. Sybil dedicated her life to curating remarkable things for this country, and I'd like to place on record our thanks on behalf of this Welsh Government.
But, in answer to your question, the new international strategy and tourism action plan makes clear our commitment to supporting and investing in international and home-grown events, including business events, and to attracting and developing events that promote tourism in all parts of Wales, including south-west Wales.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Wales is an emerging tourist destination, and, as of 2017, Wales's estimated turnover is £4.8 billion. Tourism is an important part of my region's economy, having the beauty of Gower and the seaside town of Porthcawl. The Liberty Stadium appears to be underutilised and lacks the number of sporting and music festivals that we see, perhaps, in Cardiff. So, Minister, how are you planning to capitalise on the beauty of our country by hosting larger events outside of Cardiff, which will promote economic growth in South Wales West?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well, you'll be aware that the new tourism strategy has now been launched, and I know that major events is a part of that strategy. We're currently undertaking a review of major events and I'm hoping that we'll look at some of these issues in that context, because I think one of the things that's happened in the past is that we're just constantly waiting for people to come and present us with ideas, and sometimes I think we need to be encouraging people in particular areas to come forward with some ideas for major events. We've been working very closely with local authorities over the years, but, obviously, there's a pot of money that we can only use once. So, the key thing is, I think, for people to come up with really creative ideas in terms of what they think will bring more people into the area and bring that essential extra revenue that is so crucial to developing our communities.

Suzy Davies AC: The Swansea Bay city region is about raising economic confidence in my region and beyond, but, alongside that, the local authority in Swansea is attempting toregenerate the city centre, including the construction of the new Swansea digital arena. So, along with the International Convention Centre, this substantially increases the capacity for conferences and major events in south Wales altogether, but particularly in my region. So, can you say how the Welsh Government's new tourism strategy will support the growth of new and refurbished quality visitor accommodation within accessible distance of this new arena? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think, in relation to the tourism strategy, it's best directed to my colleague. I know that there is some additional capital expenditure that's going in this year, and I'm hoping that that will generate some opportunities. But, certainly, in terms of the digital arena and other projects in that area, one of the things you'll find in the international strategy is a list in the annex of all the magnet projects that we're trying to use as methods of attracting people throughout Wales. And certainly I spoke to Swansea council about what they would want to see in terms of the kind of magnets that would pull people into the area for further investment.

International Trade

Neil Hamilton AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is promoting international trade? OAQ55036

Eluned Morgan AC: Growing our economy through international trade is one of the core ambitions in the international strategy. The challenges and opportunities that are faced by exporters during this period of transition from the EU and beyond mean that Welsh Government support is more important than ever.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the Minister for that reply. Taking my cue from Dai Lloyd's question earlier on, will the Minister acknowledge the vital importance of doing an early trade deal with the United States, where we have a pro-Brexit Government that is keen to help us as a country, in stark contrast to Monsieur Barnier, who maintains a policy of intransigence and seems to want us, for the indefinite future, to accept rules and regulations made by EU institutions in which we will not be participating, which no self-respecting nation in the world could possibly accept?
The United States is a vast and growing economy—national income's gone up by 50 per cent since 2010, whereas, in the EU, it's flatlined. So, we should therefore see the massive advantages of doing an early deal with the US, not least because that's the best way of putting pressure on the EU to do a sensible and rational trade deal with us.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think we've got to be extremely careful in this area. We've got to remember that 60 per cent of our trade in goods is with the EU, and that's why, as the Welsh Government, we have been absolutely clear that our priority would be to see a trade deal with the EU as a priority. Those rules and regulations we have already—if we go away from them, the barriers go up in terms of access to those markets, and we have to be very, very careful.
And I think, when you talk about 'no self-respecting nation' would sign up to rules from someone else, that's—. All you're really suggesting is that we sign up to American rules instead of EU rules, and that's certainly not something that you sold when you were trying to tell people in Wales that it would be a good idea to leave the EU.Jacob Rees-Mogg has said that it could take 50 years for us to benefit from leaving the EU. That's the reality of where we're heading now, and I think it's a real shame. Of course, if we can get a decent deal with the United States, that would help us internationally to grow our exports, to see further inward investment. Of course we'd want to see that, but we don't want to see it at the expense of our relationship with the EU.

David Melding AC: Minister, our biggest trading partners are Germany and France, in that order, and, to be fair to Neil Hamilton, the USA is third. We had a robust export performance last year, which I congratulate the Welsh Government on in the work it did there; we saw our exports increase by very nearly 5 per cent. But they fell to Germany, and I think we need to be very careful about the messages we are sending. We need to preserve these European markets into which we often export some of our leading goods, with all that implies for well-paid jobs, research and development and the like.

Eluned Morgan AC: I think you're absolutely right, and I was very concerned when I saw the drop in those figures, although, on the whole, we're doing quite well in terms of exports. But I was very concerned to see that drop from Germany, and that's one of the reasons why we are very much courting Germany as our key international partner. That's why we've invited the ambassador down here, and he will be visiting not just south Wales but also going to Airbus as well. So, we are terribly aware that those markets are critical to maintaining that 60 per cent of trade with the EU. But, as you say, we've got to be very, very sensitive in this very difficult period where a lot of people have lost confidence and we need to regain that now.

Welsh Government's International Strategy

David Rees AC: 8. What discussions has the Minister had with EU representatives regarding the Welsh Government's international strategy? OAQ55048

Eluned Morgan AC: I launched the international strategy in Brussels and Paris, and further details are contained in my written statement.

David Rees AC: I thank the Minister for that answer. I've read the written statement, and you do highlight that you met with Commissioner Hogan's cabinet—I'm assuming his team, rather than perhaps himself, perhaps you can clarify that.
But as we were told on many occasions by Brexiteers, we may be leaving the EU, but we're not leaving Europe. Now, the biggest organised trading organisation within Europe is the EU, and in the international strategy, you've highlighted cyber security and creative industries as two of the areas. Clearly, they're going to be affected by EU laws, particularly perhaps on the copyright question, because that's been going through, and there are very deep concerns about the copyright. What discussions will you have with EU representatives to ensure that, as they look at the laws, we can work within that to ensure that our businesses can actually export to the EU, and to ensure that we don't breach the laws?
Because this transition period is a difficult one. We don't know how well we're going to manage and transpose EU law into UK and Welsh law, and post-31 December, that might change even more. So, we need to have those discussions with the EU to ensure that the businesses and industries you identified in the international strategy, plus the ones that are not there, are able to benefit from and use EU law and it doesn't impact upon our industries.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. When we were trying to work out which sectors we should be promoting, we actually looked for ones that would be relatively Brexit proof, and the sectors that we chose were ones where we thought there would be a lesser impact as a result of us leaving the EU. So, we've deliberately thought through that as an approach.
But I think what we have got to watch out for is what that will look like in future. When we start to diverge, if we do diverge, then what will that mean in terms of access to the market and how that could impact on the sectors? We're in a different place now, and we've got to look at where the opportunities are for us as well. It may be that there is space for us in some of these technological areas in terms of creating the regulatory environment for autonomous vehicles or for cyber security; there may be some space there for us to maybe go faster and quicker than some of the continent, and that could give us an opportunity to race ahead. That, to a large extent, will be up to the UK Government, whether they grasp that opportunity.

Thank you very much, Minister.

3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Item 3 is questions to the Assembly Commission. Question 1 [OAQ55055] and Question 2 [OAQ55053] have both been withdrawn, so question 3, to be answered by the Llywydd, is from Vikki Howells.

Promoting The Forthcoming Assembly Election

Vikki Howells AC: 3. Will the Commission make a statement on efforts to promote the forthcoming Assembly election? OAQ55042

Promoting the 2021 Senedd election is one of three interrelated campaigns that the Commission is prioritising over the next 16 months, along with votes at 16 and the name change. The Commissioners agreed that our work on promoting the Welsh general election should seek to increase awareness of that election next May, to increase knowledge on how to vote, and to provide the necessary materials for individuals and organisations working in education and to communicate with key audiences.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for that answer, Llywydd. I've been looking at a study from the University of Cambridge's Centre for the Future of Democracy, and that suggests that the number of people in the UK who are dissatisfied with democracy stands at nearly three out of five. The centre has tracked views on democracy since 1995, and this is the highest recorded level ever. In a context where turnout in devolved elections tends to be lower than for UK-wide general elections, how is the Commission engaging with partners to promote awareness, understanding and participation ahead of next year's Senedd elections?

Thank you for that question and for referencing that important piece of work that highlights something that many of us probably know from our own political work in our constituencies. It sounds like an interesting piece of work; it's one that I'll ask my officials to look at as we look to prepare our own communications and promotional work in preparing for the elections next year. As I said in my opening response, there are particular areas that we are keen to prioritise. One, of course, is votes at 16 and 17, a new component to our electorate, but also seeking to work with partners who are involved with working with people from communities that feel particularly estranged from the democratic process. We need to work to ensure that those people are particularly informed and engaged and empowered to use their democratic vote next year.

Question 4 is going to be answered by the Llywydd. Andrew R.T. Davies.

Memorials Policy

Andrew RT Davies AC: 4. Will the Commission make a statement on its memorials policy in relation to those who have tragically died whilst serving as Assembly Members? OAQ55029

The Commission made a decision on the memorial policy in February 2019. It notes that the Commission will not consider memorials for individuals until 10 years have passed since the death of that individual.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Presiding Officer. I personally believe that it is very important that we do reflect on those Assembly Members who have passed away whilst they've been an Assembly Member, right across the terms of the Assembly since 1999. I hear what you say about the policy and the 10-year rule, and I was grateful to see a letter, obviously, but disappointed with its contents, that the Commission recently discussed this.
If the Assembly decided that, actually, that policy needed to change to reflect the sentiment I've just put to you, would the Commission be open to reconsidering its position so that a fitting memorial, at no expense to the taxpayer, could be erected on the Assembly estate? So that remembrance could be shown to those Members who have passed away in the time that they were Assembly Members.

It is a sensitive matter to be discussing and deciding on a memorial to a deceased friend and colleague in this Senedd, and one I find personally quite difficult. Early on in my time as Chair of the Commission we faced two requests of this nature: a purple plaque for Val Feld and a location for a statue for Rhodri Morgan. In light of these individual decisions the Commission had to take, and they were not straightforward or easy decisions to have taken, we decided to formulate a policy to aid Commissioners in the future on such matters. The policy, as I outlined, is merely one year old, and we are now being asked to make individual exceptions to this policy. The policy, as you've referenced, Andrew R.T. Davies, belongs to the Assembly as a whole and to all Members. If political groups wish for this policy to be revised, then I would be happy to discuss representations and proposals made by the political groups and Members to the Commission, with a view to revising our policy, if that is the wish of this Assembly.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'm very pleased to associate my name with the cross-party letter that we sent you, and thank you for your reply. Before we delve into a different approach, I just want to examine a bit further the current memorial policy, which I think gives some discretion to achieve what I am trying to seek, which is a memorial to Carl Sargeant. Because I note, under criteria 6.1, regarding the 10-year rule, the last sentence is:
'A shorter period may be considered by the Commission in exceptional circumstances.'
I would like to argue that a memorial to Carl Sargeant would meet the criteria for an exceptional circumstance, because the contribution that Carl Sargeant made to the Senedd—both as a formidable backbencher as well as an outstanding Minister, including being the architect of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, for which this Assembly, Senedd and our country is increasingly known as being a pathfinder for how we need to tackle climate change—as well as the tragic circumstances surrounding Carl's death, surely merits exceptional consideration of a plaque to Carl before the 10-year moratorium. I'd be most grateful if the Assembly Commission would give this due consideration.

I really don't want to be in a position to discuss the merits of individual deceased colleagues in this forum. I understand the point that you've made, and that the three Members who wrote to me have made. The Commission expressed its view on the policy that it has in place; that we were not able to make individual exceptions at that point. As I said in my answer to Andrew R.T. Davies, if political groups representing the majority view of this Assembly want to make representations on behalf of any matter that the Commission is responsible for, please do so. You are represented on the Commission by Commissioners from all political parties. Please feel empowered to make those views known to your Commissioners and to the Commission. But I need to have the policy and the decisions expressed in the context of the majority feeling of this Assembly. Please do not ask me to make any comment on individuals in this forum here.

Question 5 is to be answered by David Rowlands, as Commissioner. Question 5, Bethan Sayed.

Reducing Food Waste

Bethan Sayed AC: 5. Will the Commission outline efforts to reduce food waste on the Assembly estate? OAQ55049

David J Rowlands AC: Can I thank Bethan Sayed for her question on a matter that I'm sure concerns all of us in the Chamber? Can I assure her, and the rest of the Chamber, that the catering service in the Assembly works hard to reduce food waste where possible? Through effective menu and portion planning based on historical trends and differing daily customer demands. The relatively small amount of food waste generated, which is sent for composting at a local facility, is confirmation of the effectiveness of their efforts.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for that reply. I know that many Assembly Members organise events, and we know, potentially, how costly some of the food can be here. We have to be aware of ordering what we need for such events, so that we don't over order, and so that we ensure that guests are able to enjoy themselves and enjoy the sustenance that we given them. But I have been told by many who attend events, or many people who work here, that there may be some food that is recycled so that people can actually eat the food in the local area, by giving it to a local charity, but in some circumstances the food, despite the fact that it's still edible, goes to waste. That doesn't need to happen when there is so much left over after events.
Of course, many Assembly staff are very happy to take away trays of sandwiches from these events, but I'm thinking if there are, for example, local homelessness or local food bank-style charities in the local area—? We have to lead by example and, before getting to the point of recycling the food in that way, I would hope that we could recycle it in a way where we could be helping humans to consume it who may need it more than us.

David J Rowlands AC: I thank Bethan for her supplementary. The fact of the matter is, obviously, that the best way is that we have far less waste at all. But unfortunately, the catering service is compelled to comply with food hygiene regulations, which stipulates that chilled food laid out for buffets at room temperature must be disposed of after four hours. The Commission must point out that most buffets are requested by external event organisers who are responsible for purchasing the correct amount of food required. I understand that these are advised by the catering management to order conservatively. However, there is a natural risk-averse culture among organisers who do not want to see buffet shortages for guests, which often results is over ordering.
I must admit that I do concur with Bethan that we should be reaching out to local charities et cetera, and requesting perhaps that they could pick up this food at a very early stage, explaining to them that it has to be disposed of. But there is a difficulty as well, which has been explained to me by the catering manager, should somebody take food under those circumstances leave it for six or seven hours and then contract something from eating that food, the catering company is said to be responsible for that.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I just want to probe this a little bit further, because I see some of the waste that I know is going into the bin. And given that one third of all food is wasted in this country, we clearly have an obligation to try to ensure that that is not happening. I was interested to hear you talk about the four-hour rule, because I've been told by staff that it's a two-hour rule. And that obviously means that the catering staff are instructed to gather up all the food that's left over and dispose of it in a bin, and that is unbelievably distressing. Clearly, we need to order the right amount, but I also think we need to really hone in hard on how, if people haven't turned up for whatever reason, we can ensure it gets to people who really need food within the local community, and develop the sort of links that supermarkets have made with other charitable organisations.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, I can only agree with you entirely on those comments. Unfortunately, it's much more difficult to actually do this in practice than the theory of this, but we are always looking—the Commission and, of course, the catering staff are always looking for alternatives to this waste of food.

Thank you.

4. Topical Questions

Item 4 on our agenda this afternoon is topical questions. There's one topical question, to be answered by the Minister for Health and Social Services, and it's from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

The Departure of Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board's Chief Executive

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement following the announcement regarding the departure of Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board's Chief Executive? 391

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. The chair of the health board announced yesterday that the chief executive will be leaving the organisation. Decisions about employment matters are for the health board and its chair to make.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. It's never nice to personalise these issues, but it's clear that confidence in the ability of Gary Doherty has been lost for some time to secure the kind of progress needed within Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board after almost five years in special measures. If truth be told, I see plenty of evidence in many areas that things have been getting worse recently, and now things must improve.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The chairman and the board clearly had run out of patience with the chief executive, but let me say clearly that the people of the north of Wales have run out of patience with the failure of the health board, in direct partnership, of course, with this Labour Welsh Government. They have nothing but respect for dedicated health workers, but they need to have their faith restored that Betsi Cadwaladr health board is fit for purpose.
I have no desire to pursue reorganisation for its own sake, but I've certainly concluded, and more and more people in and around the national health service tell me that they agree with me, that there may already be no option now but to split up this failing health board—a step, as things stand now, I would be willing to take if I were to become health Minister after next year's election. But it's now up to the new leadership, both interim and permanent, and the Welsh Government to prove over the next year and a half or so that things can be turned around in order to avoid that. All eyes now are on the board, on the executives and on you, Minister.
I have five questions here. I understand, firstly, that the health board will continue to pay Gary Doherty through not only the severance period but also through his secondment to Lancashire Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. Do you believe that that can be justified? Secondly, can I ask whether the appointment of Simon Dean, who is NHS Wales's deputy chief executive, of course, as interim boss marks a stepping up in some way of special measures? Thirdly, is it your expectation that when a permanent chief executive is appointed that he or she should have a deep understanding and experience of delivering healthcare in the kind of area that we have in the north of Wales—a largely rural area and a bilingual area? Fourthly, will the Welsh Government outline the expectations of the performance of the new chief executive? I would appreciate avoiding vague terms like 'improving matters'. Finally, do you agree with me that it isn't just about one individual? It's about the lack of leadership of the Welsh Government too, and the ability to have managerial teams capable of delivering improvements that, so far, we haven't seen.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions and comments. To start, I will deal with the comments you make about the organisation of the health board. I think it's often a tempting answer to suggest that reorganisation will deliver improvement in services, and anyone who wishes to run that argument—and there are arguments to be made; it isn't my view—will need to explain how that organisation would run and function, how quickly you'd start to see improvement taking place, and what you'd do about the framework. To go back to three separate organisations, I think you'd have three quite small organisations, and even if you had two organisations within north Wales, you'd have to decide what to do with the middle part of north Wales and Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. These are not simple questions to answer, so anyone who is an advocate for an entirely different framework and an entirely different footprint needs to consider what those look like, and how they would actually lead to an improvement in the quality and delivery of care, as well as of course the practical arrangements for separating the single organisation. I don't share the view of others that say that the health board is unmanageable and that it's unachievable to have an organisation that makes progress.
Turning to your five particular points, on secondment, it's entirely normal during secondments for wages to be paid by the organisation that is seconding someone out, then the employment comes to an end, but these are matters for the health board to set out and explain. I don't think that is unusual.
And in terms of the prospects, these are very practical choices that are made. When people leave senior leadership, there are choices about what is in the best interests of the organisation and being able to move on, and the health board has made a choice that they want to be able to move on and to begin the process of having a permanent chief executive in place.
On the interim chief executive arrangements, again, this is a practical point. Simon Dean has stood in at the health board in the past and, at the time, he stabilised the organisation. He's aware of not just that time there, but his role as a deputy chief executive means he has an awareness and knowledge of all the organisations within Wales. He has significant experience within the wider health service, but he also has a significant amount of respect from staff and wider stakeholders within north Wales. It's a very practical point, and we want to see the health board continue to make progress and not simply stalling over however long it takes to recruit a new chief executive.
In terms of that future chief executive, there will of course be comments about the way in which healthcare is delivered here in Wales and, in particular, in north Wales. They will also need to be given the licence of support from people across the political spectrum to actually take steps to improve the organisation. So, that means not being afraid to make choices about the future, to be able to have an open conversation with not just the team that they will lead within the health board, but with the wider public and their elected representatives. I appreciate there's going to be an election in just over 15 months' time, but healthcare will need to be delivered in that time, and I expect all people in this room who have an interest in the future of the health service in north Wales to engage openly and directly on that. And the chief executive, whoever they are, will understand that they're walking into an environment where there isn't just an election coming, but there's a need to see genuine improvement in the way that health and care services are delivered. It's what the staff and people themselves are entitled to expect and receive.
And on performance, I've set out the performance expectations in the revised special measures framework that I published in November. It sets out revised areas for the health board to make progress against to be able to move on from special measures, and then beyond that, too. I think the test that we set for the health board has to be a fair one. It has to be: what does this organisation have to do and need to do to move beyond special measures, then what else does it need to do to get to the position where it is what we would all hope to see, a high-performing healthcare organisation? And I don't think it would be tenable to expect them to move from special measures into that particular frame in the one single jump.
On the point about individuals and the point about collective responsibility, I regularly get the opportunity to set out my role in the system and to answer questions upon it, not just in the press but in this Chamber and beyond. I have always been clear that I've got political responsibility, ministerial responsibility for the health service, and that comes with accountability for it. I don't try to step into operational choices, but every time something happens within the health service, it's entirely possible that I'll get asked about it and I'll be expected to provide an answer to it. That goes with the territory and I don't resile from that, but I'm looking for new leadership to help change and set not just the tone about what they expect from the top, but how they expect staff and the whole team within the health board to actually deliver the cultural improvements and the performance improvements that, as I say, I recognise everyone in this Chamber and beyond would expect to see.

Darren Millar AC: I have to say, Minister, I'm a little surprised by some of the comments that you've made in response to this urgent question today. For many of us in north Wales, it feels very much—

Sorry, it's a topical question, not an urgent question.

Darren Millar AC: Sorry?

It's a topical question, not an urgent question.

Darren Millar AC: Pardon me.
For many of us in north Wales, this feels very much like groundhog day and as though we are absolutely going right back to square one. We've got the same interim chief executive that was appointed on the day that special measures were initially imposed, almost four and a half years ago—almost five years ago now. We were told by Simon Dean at that time that there were 100-day plans to turn around the fortunes of this failing organisation. We saw no improvement. We've seen over the past four and a half or so years an organisation that has had even worse performance—record worse performance. It's the worst now in the whole of Wales on many performance measures, and it's got a governance system that is absolutely broken. It is not working.
We saw a report that came into the public domain just over a week ago, which had not even been shared; a report that was identifying serious failings in mental health services, particularly in terms of psychological therapies by TogetherBetter, which was not even shared with the chair of the health board, in spite it being in the possession of the health board for many months. So, the system is broken. You're part of the system. This is an organisation in special measures.
Can I ask you, Minister, do you accept now that special measures under your regime in Wales do not work, that you are not able to secure the sorts of improvements that the people of north Wales deserve to see in the performance of the health board? It's quite clear that Gary Doherty was not up to the job, as nice a man as he was. He was leading an organisation with a team of executives, some of whom were not up to the job, and, frankly, we've been glad to see the back of. We need a new team. We need an approach that is going to drive improvement forward. I'm not convinced, frankly, that you're the Minister that's going to be able to deliver the improvement we need to see, and I seriously do think now it's time for you to consider your position as health Minister in order that we can turn a page in north Wales and get a decent level of service for patients in the region. We're going back to square one, and, frankly, after four and a bit years, it's not good enough.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, there's not much there that I agreed with, and the tone in which Darren Millar with real relish attacks individuals doesn't do him any credit at all. I saw the press release he issued about Simon Dean, and I have to say, to speak in the terms in which he has done about someone with 37 years of NHS experience, who's capable, committed and respected across the national health service, I just don't think that highly personal attack does Darren Millar any credit at all, and I really do think he should reconsider, withdraw and apologise for the comments he's made about Simon Dean.
And he should recognise that, actually, in terms of Simon Dean's previous time within the health board, it did make progress, and that's part of the not just disappointment but the challenge in where we are because progress did start to be made on a range of measures during his time there. So, on primary care, on maternity, and even on mental health, progress was made during his time, and yet, during the longer period of time, the approximately four years—the last four years—we've seen the health board go backwards on performance and on finance, too.
Now, the health board have made a choice about changing the executive leadership, and the challenge now is how we have a new leadership in place, not just interim, but a permanent leadership to actually undertake the further progress that's plainly required on performance and finance against the special measures framework that I set out in November of last year, and that's my very clear expectation. I know very well that people will be looking at what happens in practical terms, both the public and of course the staff who work at that health board, and I will, of course, be reporting back to this place and I look forward to having questions next week. People have a regular opportunity to ask me questions; that's part of the job. I'm certainly not contemplating leaving this job. I'm looking forward to doing the job and continuing to make a real difference.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I start by thanking all the staff who work incredibly hard to deliver healthcare in north Wales each and every day? However, it is clear that we do need a focus on improvement and that vision comes from the very top. Minister, you'll be aware that I, along with my colleagues from north Wales—Labour colleagues—have been raising this issue with you and issues of concern with you on a regular basis, and this is mine and my colleagues' No. 1 topic of conversation. I will be looking forward to meeting with the interim chief exec at the earliest of opportunities and I will be raising issues that constituents raise with me on a weekly basis.
Firstly, accident and emergency services: the need for more minor injuries provision across Flintshire. One particular solution that I can see would be introducing a minor injuries service at Deeside hospital. Additionally, I will be raising mental health services. At the moment, Betsi do not live up to the motto that mental health services should be delivered with the same importance and urgency as physical health, and that does need to change and it does need to improve. And, finally, Minister, I will be raising the structure of the health board, and I look forward to that conversation in the future. So, Minister, will you join me in raising these issues on behalf of my constituents in Alyn and Deeside, but on behalf of the people right across north Wales, in your communications with the health board?

Vaughan Gething AC: In my communications with the health board, I continue to stress the importance of making progress against the special measures framework. I've set out objectively and clearly and in public—and it's the same conversation that I have in the direct accountability meetings with the health board—to make real progress on unscheduled care and scheduled care, to continue to make progress on mental health services, to continue to see improvement in the finance function as well—without that financial discipline, they're unlikely to see improvements in other areas—and the support that the Welsh Government could provide is actually about having a proper plan to be able to get behind and support the health board with. And I recognise that Jack Sargeant, of course, as with other North Wales Members, have raised issues with me over a period of time, and I'm sure that the interim chief executive will be keen to meet elected representatives across the spectrum, sooner rather than later.
And, in terms of the particular point that you raise today, which we've discussed in the past, about minor injuries provision, part of the interesting point here is that, on major emergency department performance, we're within 2 percentage points of England on major performance. Our challenge is largely because of our ability to deal with some of our emergency patients but, actually, not to see minor injuries provision left to the side. So, there is a challenge, not just in north-east Wales, but more broadly, and I know that's one of the challenges that not just I have discussed, but I know that the interim and the future chief executive will want to address as well.
And, on mental health, the health board does have more work to do. But, actually, if you look at what the health board is able to do, it is in a much better position now than it has been previously. And, in fact, if you look at the roll-out of I CAN Work, thousands of people are going to take part in an initiative developed in north Wales, recognised outside of Wales as well, and it's something other people are interested in doing. And it's had a roll-out in Conwy and Denbighshire too. So, there are good reasons to be optimistic about a range of things the health board has, and yet we also know there are significant challenges in the main functions of the health board to deliver. So, it's an honest reflection of where it is, but not collapsing into the idea that everything is going wrong and everything is unacceptable in north Wales, because that simply isn't true.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I would actually like to just pay some tribute to Gary Doherty for what he has attempted to do. Clearly, when anyone takes on such a responsible role, they do so with the hope that they are going to make those necessary improvements. And I think it is rather coincidental that Gary came to a health board in Wales from an English health board setting, and that it's to an English health board service that he has gone back to—whether that speaks some volumes. But we now have a situation in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board where it is being described as being in crisis by the very front-line nursing staff to patients. I have, on regular occasions, constituents coming to me, and they say, 'Janet, we are frightened. We are frightened about our actual chances when we go into hospital.' That's a very profound statement, when people haven't got confidence in that health board. We have, as Jack Sargeant has quite rightly pointed out, fantastic front-line nursing staff, and we have fantastic consultants that are there, but the frustration, the chaos, the mismanagement, continues after five years.
Now, Mark Polin, the chairman, is correct to acknowledge that performance in some areas is not acceptable. And I think, really, if any Member has taken you to task over Betsi Cadwaladr health board, I hold myself up there as being one of them, because we are on the front line, on a Friday, in our constituency offices, and it's heartbreaking to witness some of the cases that we see, the people that we talk to. These are individuals whose lives are being affected by the poor performance of this board. And it breaks my heart, I'll be honest with you. Now, this is despite the fact, Minister, that this particular health board has no less—and I gained this from an FOI—than 63 highly-paid directors. Sixty-three directors. Sixty six per cent of patients were seenwithin the critical four-hour period in December. And, last month, there were around 2,900 patients waiting for orthopaedic procedures at Ysbyty Gwynedd, with a waiting time of around, approximately, 114 weeks. Compare this to England, where the waiting time is 18 weeks. And shockingly, only yesterday, from an FOI—. I asked a simple question: how many planned operations were cancelled due to non-clinical reasons between September and December? If I was to say, 'Hazard a guess'—do you know, Members, do you know how many planned operations were cancelled due to non-clinical reasons between September and December? The figure is 2,463, and some of those are my constituents.
Now, when the health board was placed in special measures in June 2015—five years ago, nearly—one of the areas of concern was leadership and governance. Those leadership and governance concerns are still there now. Now, when I've spoken to senior people within the board—and it's a bit embarrassing, really—they tell me that it is, in fact, your Government's interventions that are causing some of the issues as to why they cannot actually get back on track. So, will you be looking again at your own model of special measures and Government interventions to see whether you are in fact supporting them, or whether you are hindering the process?
According to the improvement framework, it is asked that leaders understand the challenges, and ensure relevant expertise and capability across the system are addressing the barriers. Now, I put an FOI in on how much has it cost so far: £83 million for these special measures Government interventions. How many operations could that have actually paid for? How many staff, new nursing staff, could that have employed? I'm going to be honest with you now: the brand— Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is now a toxic brand. And I feel very, very sorry for the memory and for the family members of Betsi Cadwaladr. Because to have my name associated with such failure—if I was alive, but certainly long gone—is not a legacy that I think is one that you as a Welsh Government Minister should be proud of.
Now—

Can you wind up, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes. I'm going to ask my questions now, if I may. [Laughter.] Do you—? Oh, this is such a serious issue. Do you plan to provide Simon Dean with additional support, and, if so, what? The Simon Dean walking into this board now will be the same person, but the challenges will be different to five years ago. Will he be expected to provide a compelling vision for the health board that is understood, recognised and accepted from top to bottom of this organisation? And might it actually be the case that the chief executive role of this toxic health board is, in fact, a poisoned chalice, and that the board now could be in special measures for an immeasurable amount of time?

Vaughan Gething AC: There were a good deal of comments, but I think there were really only a couple of questions. And, look, just on intervention from the Welsh Government, you can't have it both ways. You can't, on the one hand, say, 'Do more, be more active, get involved', and then, on the other hand, say, 'You're doing too much, get out of the way, let them get on with it'. You can't have it both ways. The challenge is actually how we get people who understand the operational challenges of running and delivering the service, who can deliver on improving the relationships between staff across the organisation and with communities.
And, on your points about Simon Dean, he will have all of the support that he requires and asks for. He will also have the opportunity not just to go in from his own understanding of being the deputy chief executive and working with all of the health boards and trusts within Wales, but his time on the ground, to provide an idea of, if there are additional challenges from that perspective, where the Welsh Government could be helpful or not. But, really, the future plan and the longer-term vision is for the next chief executive to actually deliver, together with the team. We're not looking for Simon Dean to stay within the health board for another year—it's a much shorter interim period I'm looking for, so a new chief executive is in time and has time to actually deliver that vision and to work with the team who are there. And the team isn't just around the executive table; it's around the whole health board.
There are 19,000 people who work for Betsi Cadwaladr, people rooted within their local communities—a source of knowledge, a source of understanding, and, for other members of the community, really important views about where the health board is going. And, actually, it's encouraging that, in the last staff survey, there was significant improvement in people who are proud to work for the health board and actually recognise that the health board was actually starting to improve. Now, that's a challenge that you need to see reinforced time after time. It's the objective evidence from staff themselves. That's hugely important for the wider community, and I look forward to, again, having an entirely honest conversation with people in this place, and when I regularly go to north Wales, about where the health board is, what more needs to be done. And I'm looking forward to the journey through and beyond special measures, because that is what people in north Wales expect and deserve.

Thank you very much, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Item 5 on the agenda this afternoon is the 90-second statements, and the first up this afternoon is David Rees.

David Rees AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Yesterday, 4 February, was World Cancer Day—the specific day when we are asked to reflect upon the impact cancer has on those diagnosed with any form of cancer and the support needed for them and their loved ones. It's also a day when we recognise the fantastic work of the medical teams, specialist nurses, community teams and the dedicated researchers in this field.We all know someone who has heard those feared words, 'It's cancer', and the initial heartache that diagnosis brings to the individuals and their families. We all know people who are currently fighting the battle against cancer. We all know people who have won their battle, but we also know people who have fought courageously with dignity and who are no longer with us.
Improvements in early diagnosis, cutting-edge research, and the vital work done by cancer charities move us ever closer to reducing the number of people who fear those life-changing words—and they are life-changing words—helping people see it more as a chronic illness, and also the work being done by people to ensure that they are cancer-free. That is an ambition that those individual organisations have, so that all forms of cancer are treatable, allowing people to live lives where they manage their illness.To support that ambition, 4 February is a day that offers us all a chance to reflect upon our actions and to pledge to make a lasting impact upon that. Yesterday, and everyday, I pledge to champion the fight against cancer, because progress to create a world in which cancer is no longer dreaded or feared is possible. I know that all across this Chamber will join me in that pledge.

Thank you. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I want to speak today about Parkrun, the global society of running clubs that encourage people to run 5 km every Saturday morning. It's been going since 2004, and now hundreds of thousands of people run on a weekly basis, and groups of volunteers run parkruns in all parts of Wales. Llanddwyn and Llangefni are the two that are most local to me, and, according to the Parkrun website—I checked this morning—my own personal best is 26 minutes and 49 seconds. And I'm sure you'll be most impressed with that, given that I'm an old man. But did you know that a new world record for women in a parkrun was set in Cardiff just last Saturday? Athlete Charlotte Arterran her 5 km in 15 minutes and 49 seconds, which is quite incredible.
But, of course, while PBs and racing against yourself and others is a major part of parkrun, it's the health and social elements that are most important. Parkrun and the Royal College of General Practitioners, for example, have come together to promote parkrun as an example of social prescribing. Since its launch 18 months ago, 15 per cent of GP surgeries in Wales have now registered as parkrun practices, but it would be good to see that increase further.
So, many congratulations to Charlotte, and, if you haven't participated in a parkrun before, then do so. You don't need to be striving for records—indeed, you can walk if you choose to do—but give it a go: register on-line and start your weekend with a real boost for your health and your physical and mental well-being.

Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: This week is Apprenticeship Week—an opportunity to celebrate apprentices, celebrate employers and celebrate training providers. As a former apprentice myself, I know how important the apprenticeship system is for developing technical expertise and professional competence, and it is a key part to preparing the workforce of the future. As well as developing learners' technical skills, apprenticeships must also equip people with the employability and transferrable skills needed for working life and to manage career transitions in an ever-changing labour market.
Good apprenticeships provide balance of on-the-job experience with technical training. Deputy Llywydd, the apprentices of today are the leaders of tomorrow, and we must equip them with those skills. An apprentice, Michael Halliday, who served his time alongside me, is now the head of engineering at a significant employer in my own constituency. Michael oversees a large number of projects and manages a team of experienced engineers; a true success story of the Welsh apprenticeship system.
So, Deputy Llywydd, let's celebrate Apprenticeship Week by saying 'Thank you' to all our apprentices, to all the employers, and to all our training providers, like Coleg Cambria, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and so many others, who support apprenticeships throughout Wales and ensure that, in Wales, we do have the best apprentices and we do have the best apprenticeship system in the world. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Electric Vehicle Charge Points

Item 6 on the agenda this afternoon is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal: electric vehicle charge points. I call on David Melding to move the motion.

Motion NDM7239 David Melding
Supported by Angela Burns, Dai Lloyd, David J. Rowlands, Huw Irranca-Davies, Jenny Rathbone, Mark Isherwood, Mick Antoniw, Mohammad Asghar, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Russell George, Vikki Howells
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill which requires all new-build homes to be fitted with at least one electric car charge point.
2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to ensure that:
a) every new residential building with an associated car parking space has an electric charging point installed;
b) every residential building that is new or undergoing major renovation, with more than 10 car parking spaces, has cable routes for electric vehicle charge points in at least 50 percent of the total parking spaces.

Motion moved.

David Melding AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I thank the Business Committee for giving me the opportunity to speak about this legislative proposal today? Can I also thank all the Members who have supported it? A great many, I'm pleased to say, put their name to this for discussion today. I'm very pleased that my proposed Bill has received support from all political parties, indeed. I believe that this shows that there is a broad political consensus in favour of rapidly improving the electric vehicle network in Wales.
It fits into the wider narratives, of course, that have been dominating this Assembly for the last few years, none more so than the declaration of a climate emergency by the Welsh Government. It also encapsulates the principles that we support and promote in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and it would move us significantly closer to achieving our international climate obligations. Electric vehicles are the future. I don't doubt that that's the case. Indeed, only yesterday, the UK Government announced that new petrol, diesel and hybrid cars will not be sold from 2035, at the latest. And given that that target has now been reduced from 2040 down to 2035, I think 'at the latest' is an interesting qualification.
As previously mentioned in this Chamber, there are still a number of barriers that need to be overcome, such as improvements in battery technology, better range, faster charging and growth in the choice of models available. But the sector is surpassing these barriers at an astonishing pace, Only last week, Tesla posted record sales of electric vehicles and their share price has increased significantly. The car industry itself is bracing for 2020 to be the breakthrough year for electric cars, with the number of models in British showrooms set to more than double, and annual sales of zero-emission passenger cars potentially breaking through the 100,000 mark. This is highly significant.
But unfortunately, Deputy Presiding Officer, whilst Britain as a whole is on the verge of an electric car revolution, the people of Wales are not yet feeling that fully. So much so that even The Guardianreported on this issue towards the end of last year. According to the figures that they quoted, the eight counties in the UK with the lowest number of charge points per person are all in Wales. Rhondda Cynon Taf was at the bottom of the league, with only three chargers for every 100,000 residents; Caerphilly and the Vale of Glamorgan were not much better, with only four and five per 100,000 respectively. Now, two of those council areas are in my region of South Wales Central, so I definitely want to see this improve very quickly.
Now, according to the experts, the lack of charging points across the country is one of the most important factors holding back the consumer take-up of electric vehicles. Drivers are, therefore, put off making this crucial change. That's why the UK Government has put forward legislation, on which my motion is loosely based. It would be apt for me to recognise, at this point, that the proposals build on foundations that have already been laid by Members in this Chamber, and I recall Rhun ap Iorwerth's similar legislative proposal from 2018, which also got wide support from Members and all political parties.
What I am proposing, and indeed what Rhun proposed in 2018, is legislation that will be a step forward towards providing the basic infrastructure that we need to charge these electric vehicles in order to make it easier for people to make that choice for this new technology. So, why is the Welsh Government so dormant in this area, really? There are many options at our disposal, and we need to emphasise this. We could see Wales as a leader of sustainable and renewable transport, and I do think that should be our ambition.
My proposal is just one of those options, to ensure that all new-build homes come with the necessary infrastructure for this vehicle transition to take place. It is one piece of the puzzle. A key attraction of an electric vehicle is that it can be charged wherever it is parked, providing there is a suitable electrical outlet. People will want this to be provided with ease of access in all aspects of their normal daily life, whether they go to the supermarket, their place of work—indeed, I'm delighted that we do have some charging points now on the Assembly estate—or at the gym.
My legislation ensures that we are connecting this technology into the most common and basic aspect of our daily life: one's home. This is where the vast majority of electric vehicle charging will happen. Home charging would provide the most convenient option, of course, and will more often than not be cheaper than using the public network, particularly when charging overnight and taking advantage of off-peak tariffs. Given that 98 per cent of journeys in the UK are less than 50 miles, many drivers with access to a charge point at home may never need to use the public charge point network.
I do think the time has come for us to hardwire this into our new housing. The UK Government estimates that a charging point costs about £976 per parking space if provided with a new build or a renovation, as opposed to over £2,000 for retrofit. So, clearly, we need to get on and do this and help our residents make that great choice. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'm very happy to support your proposal for a Bill, though I have some reservations on the detail, which I'd just like to outline. I think hydrogen vehicles are one of the solutions, but it certainly wouldn't be on top of my list of solutions, to the carbon crisis. At the moment, take-up is very low because they cost a lot of money and they aren't available. It takes at least three months to even get a new car, which are eye-wateringly expensive, and second-hand ones are almost no cheaper for the obvious reason that there's such a shortage of these vehicles. But the number of charging points that are being put in every single day is, I think, somewhere between six and 12, so the whole market is exploding. Nevertheless, I congratulate you on having a very timely proposal on the back of the Government's announcement.
But some of the reservations: will the city dwellers of the future really want to clog up their streets with metal boxes that are stationary for over 90 per cent of the day? Wouldn't the space between homes be so much better used for children and adults to play as well as grow food? I remember the visit that I made in the fourth Assembly with some members of the environment committee to Freiburg in Baden-Württemberg as part of the environment committee, and the quality and connectivity of the public transport and active travel routes meant that far fewer residents in that city bothered to have a car, and were renting one as and when they needed to go on holiday or make a special or unusual journey.
One housing estate we visited had a wonderful willow adventure playground whose footprint overtly represented the footprint of land set aside for an additional car park. And the question for residents was: did they prefer this wooded playground or another multi-storey car park? And it's worth noting that the design of that estate allowed people to drive up to their front door to offload people or groceries, but cars could only be parked in the existing multi-storey car park, and that made for just a much more pleasant environment. So, I think we have an awful long way to go in our thinking through of twenty-first century appropriate designs.
Secondly, whilst electric vehicles belch out a lot less pollution than diesel or petrol cars, I grant you they are not without cost to the environment. It all depends, for example, on whether the energy they're going to be using to charge that electric vehicle is clean energy from renewables—not much of that happening anywhere in Britain that I'm aware of—or dirty energy from fossil fuels. There's a huge difference in terms of the outcome for the environment and for carbon emissions. So, if this proposal gets the go-ahead, I'd want to see the proposal amended to insist that the electric charging points put in with new housing—

Nick Ramsay AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Jenny Rathbone AC: —are fired up by renewable energy. [Interruption.] I will take an intervention, yes.

Yes, but you are out of time, you realise, don't you?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. All right. Well, I'll have to not take the intervention.

Angela Burns AC: I'm delighted to be able to support David Melding's Bill. I think that this is very neat, very timely and actually is a small Bill that we could get through the Assembly in double-quick time, because it is so highly focused.
I heard what Jenny Rathbone said, and I do agree that there are issues to be overcome, but I also believe that we will only solve the climate crisis by lots of small steps. Anybody looking to find something that's going to be a complete panacea and solve it all in one go—it's just not going to happen. This is one small step. The other items you mentioned are other small steps.
I'm particularly concerned because there are more and more people who are trying to go down the electric car route but, particularly in rural areas, finding car-charging spaces is well-nigh impossible. Although, I would like to say, I've found a great website called Zap-Map that goes around showing you all of your charging areas throughout the UK; pretty bare in Wales, it has to be said.
I'm delighted, actually, that the UK Government has taken the commitment to ban the sale of fossil fuel cars by 2035. As somebody who loves her car, lives in her car, and likes to go at the speed of light, I'm having to bite the bullet. But actually, I want my kids to grow up in a really good environment and to have a planet to live on. So, I'm converted to the whole electric car opportunity.
The other reason why I think this is such a good idea, David, is because I've long advocated the use of what we call the Merton principle in the building of new housing estates. Now, this is a prescriptive planning principle that is used, named after the London borough of Merton, which came up with it in the first place. It says that 10 per cent of all energy needs of a new housing estate should come from renewable energy sources on the site of where the houses are. So, why not expand that to put electric vehicle charging points in with all of those houses, because we're taking that and developing it one step further?
I'd also like the Government to consider, when we move forward with this Bill, looking at things such as an the interest-free electric vehicle loans that Transport Scotland currently run, which enables people to purchase electric cars. They are still pretty expensive, they have very convoluted sales and buying, you've got to have the facility to be able to put a plug-in charger at home—difficult if you live in a block of flats. But Transport Scotland have come up with a way to give people substantial sums of money on very low-cost loans over six years to get us moving into the electric car revolution, and that's what we all are. This is a small step, or a tiny drive, but I think this is a really good idea, a good piece of legislation. David Melding, I wish you well with it, and I will support it all the way.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: As a proud campaigner in favour of greater adoption of ultra low emission vehicles, or ULEVs, I welcome very much this motion from David Melding, and I'm happy to support it.
Just in response to what we heard from Angela Burns—you said you like your car, you like to drive fast, but you'll support EVs—EVs drive like any other car. We're not asking you to give up anything; we're asking you to make a contribution to the environment.
David Melding mentioned earlier that I proposed a similar motion back in 2018. That was not just on housing; that was on introducing planning guidelines for new developments, whether they're public buildings or housing, in order to make sure that we have that wider network. I also proposed a Bill to have a non-carbon-emission public vehicles strategy through legislation for Wales. The point being that we need legislation, and we need to use our legislative tools. The market will deliver a lot of what we want, but just as with broadband, the market doesn't reach out to all parts of Wales. Government has to step in with funding, Government has to step in with legislation too, and we have to look at all those tools at our disposal in order to encourage take-up.
I talked earlier in the Chamber today about money secured by Plaid Cymru in a budget deal a couple of years ago, to secure money for a national network of charging points. Again, the market will pay for a lot of the charging points that we'll need, but when it comes to housing—[Interruption.] I don't think we can take interventions in these debates, can we?

Yes, you can.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Just in a second. In years to come, no doubt when people insist on having charging points in their homes, builders will put them in. But what Government can do is insist that that happens through legislation now, in order to drive that culture change, which will lead us to that point in the not-too-distant future.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Do you agree that these new electric charging points need to be generated by renewable energy? Otherwise we're simply not actually moving the dial on our carbon emissions.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: To keep my answer short, electric vehicles are still more efficient than internal-combustion-engine-driven cars even if they're fuelled by electricity generated by fossil fuels, because they're more efficient. But you're absolutely right, of course: that's where we need to get to, that we're using clean electricity to drive the car. So it's a central point.
There's much that we need to do in Wales. I published this report along with my team member, Jamie Thomas, last year, looking at lessons from Scotland, and there's so much that we can learn from what they did in Scotland. They took this seriously years ago. They put measures in place through central Scottish Government, and through local councils such as Dundee, in order to drive that culture change, and there are so many questions for Welsh Government to look at. What incentives can people be given to make the switch? Who can they work in partnership with to make ULEVs more attractive to people? How will the benefits of ULEVs be communicated to people? How can Wales innovate and normalise in the ULEV field? How can we control things centrally, as they've done in Scotland, in having a central, publicly owned hub to which data from private companies are fed in so that they know how people in Scotland are behaving in relation to electric vehicles?
So, this is another important piece of legislation being proposed by David Melding. I hope the Government really run with this.

Russell George AC: I also support David Melding's legislative proposal. Like Rhun ap Iorwerth, I'm also a campaigner in this area myself. I think we're all very aware of the Welsh Government's climate change declaration, and of course David Melding's referred to the UK Government's announcement yesterday to phase out petrol and diesel cars at a much earlier stage. So I think it is important that we accelerate action in this area, to make sure that we're prepared for the change ahead.
That's why the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee did a piece of work on this last year, and we actually conducted our inquiry in a very different way. We started in a normal way, in taking evidence, but what we then did is we decided to publish our draft report, and we did that because this is such a fast-moving area of policy change. So we wanted that further input, and then once we had that we then published our final report. We also took into account the work that Rhun ap Iorwerth had done, because that coincided more or less with our report.
'Planning Policy Wales: Edition 10' has a new policy on ultra low emission vehicles that requires non-residential developments to have charging points at at least 10 per cent of the parking spaces available. But our report recommended going further than this, and we said that this should be extended to include residential developments, and that consideration should be given to raising the percentage of parking spaces with charging points as electric vehicles become more prevalent. So, as a result of that, I was very pleased that the Welsh Government accepted this recommendation and indicated that the move to charging points in non-residential developments was—and I'm quoting here—
'intended to be an interim measure in lieu of a more comprehensive approach to be taken forward through the Building Regulations.'
So, our committee's report called for urgent action and the Welsh Government has said that it will bring forward a new electric vehicle charging strategy, and what that contains will be very important.
We've heard about market intervention, and the market will intervene in this area, but it is a chicken-and-egg situation. We do need the Government to step in to break that cycle, and that's why I'm very supportive of the proposals that have been put forward by David Melding today and I'll be supporting his legislative proposal.

Mark Isherwood AC: I'm pleased to support this motion, but recognise that the need for electric car charging points in residential buildings only represents part of the wider infrastructure required.
I chaired the first session at December's Policy Forum for Wales keynote seminar, 'Energy policy in Wales and enabling the transition to a low-carbon economy—priorities for cutting emissions, infrastructure and investment and supporting the economy.' As I stated there, the ability to store large amounts of energy is critical to renewable energy, because sunshine and wind don't simply appear at convenient times when humans need electricity, but if all conventional cars and public vehicles are replaced by electric cars and vehicles, the world would run out of lithium, which is used in batteries, in around five decades. I also commented that, in the United States, there's research now on alternative renewable energy batteries, but they're not yet ready to take to market.
We also heard from the expert panel that we do see evidence that transition to electric and other forms of low-emission vehicles is under way, but it's under way much slower in Wales than the rest of the UK, and that's measured by the uptake of electric vehicles and by the provision of charging point infrastructure.
We heard that there's a long list of things that public sector organisations could and should be doing, including facilitating a network of charging points and leading by example, by encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles within public sector fleets and their supply chains, using their leverage through procurement. We heard that it's absolutely crucial that there are charging points at the right rates and in the right locations to give fleets and individuals confidence to go out and invest in an electric vehicle, and that the public sector can lead by example, as I indicated.
My own son-in-law is a qualified electric vehicle charger installer, and I recently met Flintshire-based businesses delivering both training and installation. All are waiting for the dam to burst, yet UK Department for Transport statistics published in December showed that only 60 publicly available rapid chargers exist across Wales, with none, they say, in Gwynedd, Conwy, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Merthyr Tydfil, Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent or Torfaen, and only 1.8 per 100,000 population in Wales, compared to 3.6 in England and 7.5 in Scotland.
In his recent statement on the north Wales metro, the Minister for Economy and Transport referred to the new park-and-ride site and active travel routes on the Deeside Industrial Park—good things; however, I'm advised that only two double chargers are being installed for 240 parking spaces at the park and ride, and that even this took sector intervention with the council. We've got to do better.

Can I now call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government, Julie James?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you all for the contributions made on this topic. I very much welcome the opportunity to discuss measures that have the potential to contribute meaningfully to the transformation of our transport sector and our environment, and which have so much obvious cross-party consensus.
Clearly, this matter relates to transport, however I am responding to the debate as we have determined that building regulations, which fall within my portfolio, will be the key means to deliver electric vehicle charging for new buildings, as we said to Russell George's committee report, indeed.
The electrification of road transport is central to our plans to reduce carbon emissions, as set out in 'Prosperity for All: A Low Carbon Wales'. Cars on their own account for almost 8 per cent of Wales's greenhouse gas emissions. Transport sector carbon emissions have changed little since the 1990 baseline, and the emergence of electric vehicles could reduce this significantly during the 2020s. Electric vehicles also have a key role to play in improving air quality in our towns and cities.
As David Melding acknowledged, building the comprehensive network of chargers needed to support the large-scale uptake of electric vehicles will be a significant challenge. There are a variety of charging systems and chargers, and they are needed with various speeds and at a variety of locations to offer convenient charging for all. However, charging at home, for those with the facility to park at home, will be the most convenient and cost-effective method of charging their cars in the foreseeable future. Charging overnight at home can also help to balance the peaks and troughs of electricity demand and so should be encouraged. Around 80 per cent of all electric car charging currently happens at home and we expect that to continue to be the most popular method of charging.
Later this year, the Minister for Economy and Transport will publish an electric vehicle charging strategy, which will help us to decide which actions are required to fulfil the requirements for chargers during the next five years or so. At this early stage in the adoption of electric vehicles, we recognise the need to encourage take-up. I highly recommend the Zap-Map, as highlighted by Angela Burns, for anyone who does have an electric vehicle—it is actually really useful to know where you might find a charging point.
As Russell George said, we've already introduced a requirement in 'Planning Policy Wales' for new non-residential developments, such as supermarkets and workplaces, to have electric vehicle charging points. For existing buildings, we have introduced permitted development rights to enable businesses to install electric vehicle chargers without the need for any planning permission. These measures are all important in addressing concerns about range anxiety. Obviously, anyone who's looked into an electric vehicle immediately works out what their normal range is and whether they can get there and back without the charging mechanism. For those of us who work in two different places, whether you can charge at work if the range is too far, as it would be in my case, for example, is a big issue.

Angela Burns AC: Will you take an intervention?

Julie James AC: Sure.

Angela Burns AC: Just to give you some context there, Minister, if I drive an electric vehicle up from Pembrokeshire to Cardiff Bay and then back again, I have to stop at the services on the M4 in order to re-zap myself to continue on my journey home. That charge itself takes half an hour, so it just lengthens the whole process.

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm in a very similar position myself. Actually, one of the things that I've yet to discuss, but I'm sure the Llywydd and Dirprwy Lywydd will welcome it, is whether we can introduce some electric charging points in this building for Members' cars. We do have some for Government cars, but if we can have a look at extending that, I think that would be very welcome to many Members on a personal basis. But, obviously, we need that spirit to go out into all employment in Wales, so that other people travelling distances to employment or for whatever reason can charge on an interim basis as well.
As I say, we're not stopping there. We've already planned some of the necessary powers to make the changes on electric vehicle chargers. The Minister for Economy and Transport and I have recently agreed to issue a consultation paper on changes to require electric vehicle charging points for all new dwellings and in parking areas for non-residential buildings. Further detail on the specifics of these proposals will be set out in the consultation.
Just in response to Rhun, we have been working in response to the agreement that we made with Plaid. We had 670 charging points across Wales in April of last year and we've got 1,000 at the moment, so it is bumping up a bit, although I agree that we could go faster.
We do expect that consultation to come out later this spring. So, while I support the objective of requiring new houses to have electric vehicle charging points, it's not necessary to have a Bill as we will be developing our own proposals to bring this forward in our building regulations, which are due to go out to consultation very shortly and cover a range of matters, one of which will be this.
Jenny Rathbone is right about the green infrastructure and designs-for-living points. We do have a couple of programmes in our innovative housing project looking at exactly that, whether people will live in developments where their car is somewhere else. One of the issues that we've had in previous designs is that people will not use parking arrangements away from the house because, often, a car is the second most expensive thing that anybody's ever bought, after their house, so they're very, very reluctant to put it miles away from where they are. But, I agree that we need to look at the green infrastructure around that and what can be built into that.
As Rhun said, I agree that we need Government intervention in a market that isn't entirely delivering, but it's not necessarily primary legislation that we need—we do have other legislative vehicles, including building regulations and the planning arrangements.

Nick Ramsay AC: Will you take an intervention?

Julie James AC: Certainly.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thanks for giving way. It's been a really productive debate so far. I agree with Members who've said that we need to, as the Minister has said, really ramp up the charging point infrastructure—that's clearly important. As to the future, in Europe there have been some prototype towns where they're looking at Wi-Fi charging, which might be one way of continually charging vehicles along roads in the future. I know that's some way off in Wales, and what you're doing in prioritising the current structure is right, but are you paying any attention to future innovations that might mean that some of these issues in the future resolve themselves?

Julie James AC: Yes, that's a very good point. We have looked at some innovative programmes. I know that the Minister for Economy and Transport's officials, for example, have been looking at whether it's possible to have slow charging lanes along trunk roads, so that you have—I don't understand the technology—some kind of induction looping so that if you drive your car along at x miles per hour it charges back up. We are looking at some of those innovations, but I do think they're a little way off in terms of general infrastructure, but, nevertheless, they need to be kept a weather eye on.
The other thing to say—I think Angela Burns brought this up, and a number of others may have as well—but local authorities already can set renewable targets in their local development plans in accordance with the Merton rule that she mentioned specifically, and others have mentioned the greening of the grid. So, local authorities already can do that in Wales. The thing that we're doing now, in terms of the national development framework and the strategic planning arrangements that we're putting in through the local government Bill, is encouraging them to do that on a strategic, regional level, as well as in their local development plans. But they do have the power to do already.
So, just to say in summing up, Deputy Presiding Officer, we absolutely support the thrust of this motion to ensure electric vehicle charging points are installed in all new houses and, in fact, in non-residential buildings as well. We are abstaining, however, only because we don't think it needs primary legislation. We're looking at doing it through the building regulations route instead, and that forms part of our forthcoming consultation.

Can I now ask David Melding to reply to the debate?

David Melding AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.I think we've had an outstanding debate and really pertinent points brought forward that have added to its depth, and I think really added also authority to the need to move, and I thank the Minister for replying in that spirit also.
If I can just say, I think, Jenny Rathbone, you're right to say that there are other technologies, and hydrogen is the most likely one, perhaps, when we're comparing, but electric is much more advanced and there are quite formidable challenges still facing hydrogen. But, whatever happens, we want these new technologies to be available. How many cars? I'm with you in being fairly agnostic on car use. I would like to see fewer cars bought and more shared, and we will probably see social trends like that. We're not building that many new houses, so it's fairly limited, really, if we're going to bring in this law. It's not as if we're going to be requiring every house to retrofit. And you're right about renewable energy; it's got to be part of the picture. I think there's a cartoon in the Telegraphtoday—or it's in one of the newspapers, anyway—showing an electric charging point then linked to a dirty coal-fired power station, and that defeats the object completely.
Angela, I think rural charging points are really, really important, and the zap map, which just sounds wonderful and I'm sure is wonderful, but it's new to me. And you like your car—you're not there with Jenny and myself. We've got to remember this, that lots of people find cars very, very liberating, and Jenny and I live in very urban areas with lots of public transport and other options, so let's remember those that really do rely on their cars.
Rhun led this agenda and I'm pleased to have the encore here, I suppose. You reassured Angela that electric cars have high performance as well—I don't want to say 'go fast', that might encourage the wrong thing, but, anyway, 'high performance', let's accept that euphemism. And the need, you said, to use legislative power and planning, and look at what Scotland did—you know, it's a vital tool.
Russell, again, the committee has worked hard in this area, and you did remind us about climate change obligations, which this is a very key part of in meeting them.
Mark talked about the technology, and we do need to improve the battery technology, and the reliance on lithium at the moment is potentially problematic. And the lack of rapid-charging points in Wales is something that clearly is a problem at the moment.
Then, the Minister focused on building regs and secondary approaches, in the sense of not needing primary legislation, and I really welcome the Welsh Government's plan to bring a strategy forward in this area, which the economy and transport Minister will make. I do politely point out that this is a take-note motion—it's not saying there should be a Bill brought in—so I do hope that you don't have to object to it, because it does not commit you, as far as my reading of the motion goes, anyway; it's merely a take note that this proposal has been made, and you've obviously entered your reservations anyway. So, I hope this can now go through by acclamation, as it were.
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thank you, and the proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object?

Julie James AC: I'm afraid I am objecting; we need to abstain.

Okay. So, we defer voting under this item, then, until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Debate on the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee Report: Common policy frameworks: Assembly scrutiny

Item 7 has had no motion tabled.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Air Pollution

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 3 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendments 2, 4 and 5 in the name of Darren Millar.

So, we move to item 8, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on air pollution. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM7264 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Believes that air pollution is a public health crisis, which contributes to an estimated 2,000 deaths a year in Wales.
2. Notes that large areas of Wales do not monitor air quality.
3. Calls for a clean air act for Wales, which would include measures to:
a) give communities the right to have pollution-monitoring equipment outside of schools and hospitals;
b) create infrastructure that would enable local authorities to introduce pollution and congestion charges where appropriate,
c) reform the planning process to require the impact of a development on air pollution to be given greater weight in the planning system;
d) accelerate the transition to an electric transport system so that petrol and diesel cars are phased out by 2030.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to be able to open this debate on a very important issue in terms of public health, and very important in terms of the environment as well, namely air pollution. The evidence is very clear. I think that this is a significant problem. Air pollution will kill 2,000 people every year in Wales—think about that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Both short and long-term exposure to ambient air pollution can lead to a host of conditions—reduced lung function, respiratory infections, aggravated asthma to name just three. Maternal exposure to ambient air pollution is associated with adverse birth outcomes, low birth-weight, for example, pre-term births, small for gestational age births. Emerging evidence also suggests that ambient air pollution may affect diabetes and neurological development in children. It's the cause of many cancers, and some air pollutants are also linked to psychiatric conditions. The effects of air pollution disproportionately affect people in deprived areas, and, unfortunately, the policy responses have often suggested that this is not understood. We're still waiting for a clean air Act. I'm not sure at this point in time whether the Government intends to deliver the commitment made by the First Minister in his leadership campaign to have such an Act.
We are disappointed to see the wording used by the Government in amendments 1 and 3 in front of us this afternoon. Most of Wales doesn't have air quality monitoring, and it's well highlighted that the modelling used is inaccurate. A quote from Professor Paul Lewis, esteemed professor from Swansea University, noted that there's no detail in the clean air plan at all as to what a national air pollution monitoring network would do, and it might not actually lead to any significant increase in monitoring: it's likely that, rather than invest in technology, they'll just work with the modelling company to improve the models—currently having a 30 per cent error rate—to predict air pollution levels across Wales.
My colleagues will elaborate further on why we in Plaid Cymru believe the current response is completely inadequate, and, I dare say, complacent. We will, however, support the Conservative amendments in front of us today, as they add to the motion, we believe, and are constructive.
Of course, this isn't a problem in any way confined to Wales. We're talking about a global issue. We might, for example, note that over 1.5 million people—1.5 million people—will die each year in China because of air pollution, and this somehow appears to be considered normal, perhaps inevitable. Let's contrast that with the measures that have, quite rightly, been taken to mitigate the spread of Coronavirus. In this case, the interests of industry, of the economy, have taken, quite rightly, second place to the priority of containing a very real threat to public health. But when it comes to environmental problems that cause a big threat to public health—and climate change is the obvious big one here—the scale of inaction really is quite telling.
The point is: let's imagine if we took pollution to be as serious a threat as a virus. We would be solving the problem almost overnight, I believe. But, instead, we're really not seeing the culture change we need in a number of areas—in the planning system, in budgeting processes and wider attitudes within Government—that suggest that we're taking this as seriously as we ought to. It still seems that, too often, there's a conflict between economy departments, say, and everybody else, that views pollution somehow as a necessaryphase of economic growth. Surely, if we're not at the end of that way of thinking, we're rapidly, rapidly approaching it.
I'll finish with this quote from a recent Lancet report on pollution:
'The claim that pollution control stiﬂes economic growth...has repeatedly been proven to be untrue.'
Pollution actually costs the economy in terms of lost productivity and spending on the consequences of it. Unfortunately, the industries responsible for pollution are also highly effective at public relations, lobbying and pressuring the media to create the impression that pollution control is bad for growth. But studies of the impact of clean air regulations in the US suggest otherwise.
We know, don't we, deep down, that we have to change? We know surely, Welsh Government, that action has to be taken and that we need an Act. Surely it's now time to quit our addiction to poor air.

Thank you. I have selected the five amendments to the motion. Can I call on the Minister for the Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to move amendments 1 and 3, formally tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans?

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans
Delete point 2 and replace with:
Calls for a new national air pollution monitoring network that complements Wales’ existing monitoring capabilities.

Amendment 3—Rebecca Evans
In point 3, delete 'which would include measures to:' and replace with 'and for Welsh Government and UK Government to take decisive action to strengthen all measures, using legislation where necessary, to:'.

Amendments 1 and 3 moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Formally.

Thank you. I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to move amendments 2, 4 and 5, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Add as new point after point 2 and renumber accordingly:
Further notes that air pollution exacerbates existing lung conditions and is a cause of asthma and lung cancer, and that the long-term impacts of poor air quality are not yet fully understood.

Amendment 4—Darren Millar
In point 3, insert as new sub-points before sub-point (a) and renumber accordingly:
'enshrine in law World Health Organisation air quality guidelines;
mandate the Welsh Government to produce a statutory air quality strategy every five years;'

Amendment 5—Darren Millar
In point 3(a), insert ', and introduce a "right to breathe"' after 'hospitals'.

Amendments 2, 4 and 5 moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I formally move the amendments in the name of Darren Millar—amendment 2, amendment 4 and amendment 5 on the order paper this afternoon.
It's a little bit like groundhog day today. In September, we had a clean air debate from this side of the Chamber, and I fully endorse the sentiments of the opener of the debate who said, if this was any other type of problem, issue, there would be a national will to sort this out. We know for a fact that nearly 2,000 people are dying prematurely, and, in that debate, I made this very point: if someone came in and lobbied this Chamber, and the Members within this Chamber, to say that there are 2,000 people in Wales dying prematurely and there are the tools in the toolbox to solve this problem, or certainly radically reduce the number of people dying prematurely, then politicians of all hue would put their shoulder to the wheel and actually want those levers pulled to make sure that we addressed it.
It is disappointing that the First Minister's commitment in his leadership campaign to bring forward a clean air Bill has now dropped from the Government's legislative programme for this Assembly. I'm sure it will sit in manifestos for 2021, but, again, this is a piece of legislation, I would suggest, that would enjoy widespread support across the Chamber and wouldn't get bogged down into a trench warfare of maybe party politics or some of the obstacles that obviously delay legislation passing through this particular institution. And I do believe that, with the goodwill of Members on all sides of the Chamber, that legislation could be on the statute book by the time this Assembly went into dissolution by the end of March. So, again, I would urge the Minister to work with Cabinet colleagues and reach out across the Chamber to bring those legislative changes forward that, as I understand it from previous debates, and I'm sure this debate, will reiterate the consensus that exists around the Chamber.
And I do think it is a right for people to have clean air to breathe on a day-to-day basis. I well remember, in the debate in September, my colleague Nick Ramsay to the side here, highlighted his constituent—Mrs Barnard, I think the lady's name was—who basically suffocated to death because, obviously, she had a lung condition that was exacerbated by poor air quality. Can you imagine watching a loved one slowly but surely gasping for air, her last breaths, and ultimately slipping away, and you know that improvements could be made to improve the quality of life that that individual will lead? Those are the real human consequences that are going on in our society today, and it is for Government to bring forward the proposals that actually could make a big difference. So, that's why, in amendment 2, I do think that it is really important to highlight the conditions that are exacerbated by poor air quality, such as asthma, such as lung cancer, and other long-term impacts on health, and I do hope that the amendment will enjoy the support of the Chamber this afternoon.
It is also important, I would suggest, when we're setting standards, as we highlight in amendment 4, that, instead of just settling on the standards we have at the moment—as I understand it, the Welsh Government standards are based on European standards—we do go for the World Health Organization's standards in this particular area, because that sets the gold standard of where we need to be. Other Governments across the UK have agreed that that is the standard that they measure themselves by, and I would hope that the Welsh Government would want to be measured by the same standard as well. And the uniformity—as the opener of the debate highlighted, this isn't just a localised problem here in Wales—albeit we have some of the most chronic air condition problems here—but across the whole world, and, indeed, across the rest of the United Kingdom. And so, again, I would very much hope that the Government and other parties will support amendment 4 that is in the name of Darren Millar and calls for the World Health Organization airquality guidelines to be adopted by the Government.
And then amendment 5, talking about the right to breathe. It is a right to breathe clean air. I see Dai Lloyd over there in the Chamber and I see the lectern he has in front of him; he, no doubt, is going to contribute to this debate, and I pay tribute to the work he's done on the all-party group that he chairs on this particular subject. He highlighted how, 150 years ago, it was a given that it was all right for people to drink dirty water and the health consequences that came from that were tolerable in society, as such. When our predecessors got their act together and cleaned up the water systems in this country, so public health improved dramatically. Our ancestors recognised 150 years ago those were changes were needed to make. Well, today—sadly, we've had to wait 150 years—we can make the changes to air quality here in Wales that will see that seismic shift in the quality of life that many people will enjoy the length and breadth of Wales.
And so, moving these amendments, I hope they contribute to the overall motion that is before us this afternoon. And I do hope, like many motions before it, this motion does find favour with the Assembly and we can see real action from the Welsh Government in this particular area, which will enjoy support, I would suggest, across the Chamber. We cannot stand by and allow another 2,000 people every year to die prematurely. That's why we will be supporting the motion before us this afternoon.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I just want to pick up on the references that we've heard to the 2,000 people dying prematurely because of air pollution. Of course, that doesn't take into account as well the many thousands who are suffering illnesses as a result of pollution in the air. The scale of those experiences is not reflected in the scale of the response from the Welsh Government, which is a sentiment that's already been made that I want to support.
We saw, back in May 2017, how Plaid Cymru sought to amend the Welsh Government'spublic health Bill to recognise air pollution as a public health issue. Unfortunately, Labour voted down those amendments. Back in January 2018, the Welsh Government conceded in a High Court case brought by Client Earth that it had failed to meet EU targets to cut air pollution, and they were legally obliged to draft a clean air plan by the end of April and have a final plan in place by the end of July 2018. It had to seek an extension to do that.
I still feel that we haven't seen that step change in attitude from the Welsh Government, being willing to grapple with this and to get to grips with it and to sort it. Since then, we've still seen the Government—. It feels as if the Government is flip-flopping between whether it's going to be a clean air Act, or whether it's going to be a clean air plan. Certainly, I feel the Government has failed to create and introduce robust measures to take real action.
In December, there was a statement on clean air, and it seemed to reaffirm a commitment to a clean air Act. However, the statement committed only to a 12-week consultation and then publication of the findings before the end of this Assembly. Well, there's not much urgency there, and it very much feels like kicking the issue into the long grass.
Now, if you want a concrete example of why we need a clean air Act to protect communities and people's health, look no further than Chirk. It's an area I know that the Minister is familiar with. It's a small town near Wrexham, home to a large wood-chip manufacturer, Kronospan, that recently suffered a fire in its log yard. It's the seventeenth fire in 18 years, although anecdotally local people tell me that there are even more regular occurrences than that. Now, because of a lack of air pollution monitoring, it took 48 hours for residents living across the road from the burning plant to be advised to close their doors and their windows. It took 48 hours to advise children at the school across the road not to play in the yard. And it took 48 hours to get monitoring equipment there from Swansea to assess the air quality.
Now, this is a community that's had more than its share of such incidents and, frankly, they've had enough. They've had enough, and they're now mounting weekly pickets of the plant and they want to see action. But of course, they won't get it from this Government, because the Minister told me last week that she didn't think an independent inquiry was necessary; this despite evidence that there was formaldehyde present in the air, that was eventually monitored 48 hours after the worst of the fire had passed, and we know about the carcinogenic dangers as well of damp wood smoke. Just to be clear, this was no small fire. We were talking here about 7,000 tonnes of wood that were destroyed in the fire.
So, that's why we need a clean air Act: to force complacent Governments to act, rather than wash their hands of responsibility. A clean air Act such as that proposed by Plaid Cymru would enable the residents of Chirk and elsewhere to have permanent air quality monitoring near schools and hospitals. Chirk's hospitals and schools are within a stone's throw of the Kronospan plant. The clean air Act would also give councils added powers to refuse planning permission if it meant air quality was being compromised. Councillors have been hamstrung as planning application after planning application has come before them.
To the people of Chirk and the surrounding area, a clean air Act isn't an abstract idea, it's a must-have piece of legislation to protect their children and future generations. And if this Government wants to pay more than lip service to the well-being of future generations, it will ensure that this Senedd gets Plaid Cymru's clean air Act on to the statue book as soon as possible.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think there is increasing demand for a clean air Act as more people are aware of the damage they're doing to their lungs, and particularly to their children's lives. One of the nurseries in my constituency is, in every respect, an exemplary child-focused institution, except that it is an area of dangerously polluted air. Fully half of the children have respiratory problems, which is why I would find it ethically very difficult to recommend that nursery to anybody, simply because of my knowledge of what it is doing to those children's lungs. It's something that's beyond the power of the nursery providers, because they simply don't have the resources to move.
But it is ironic that, right next door to it, is a primary school where parents insist on picking up their children by car, because that is their right, and they are adding to an already unacceptable problem. I find that it's not only in that particular area. In other areas of very high pollution where there are schools, parents insist on taking their children right up to the school gate. They simply are in denial about the fact that you are exposing your child to more pollution by delivering them to school in a car than you are if you walk them along the road or scoot or bike. How many times do we have to repeat this? You are actually endangering your child's health by doing this.
I'm very pleased to see that the amendments proposed by the Government are actually strengthening the motion. It does, I think, indicate the level of commitment that the Government has to taking action on this, because we cannot go on like this. There's one particular ask that I have in relation to the school run, as it's called, which is that we really do need to create vehicle exclusion zones around our schools, (a) to force people to learn how to walk again, and (b) to ensure that vehicle pollution is not actually entering the playground where children are playing during their break times. I think that is something that we absolutely could be doing.
And in addition to that, as the motion suggests, we should have pollution monitoring equipment outside every school and hospital so that we know exactly how much pollution people are imbibing in the places where they are obliged to go. So, I support the motion and I very much support the sentiment.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will the Member take an intervention? I'm grateful, Jenny, for you taking the intervention. You highlighted exclusion zones around schools. We focus on the combustion engine, but you and I have heard evidence on the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee about particulate matter from tyres and other substances, brake pads as well, that account for 40 per cent of the particles we inhale. So, it's not just focusing on the combustion engine, which can be overcome by electric cars; it's looking at the whole mobile movement of people around, as you're identifying today.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I absolutely agree with that, and that is one of the reservations I have about the electric vehicle charging focus, because electric vehicles are still going to have brakes and tyres, and they're still going to be emitting particulate matter.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take a brief intervention? I'd make a point that electric vehicles that use the power from the moving vehicle to charge the battery—and in so doing it slows the car down electrically, if you like—are much better than current vehicles in terms of the emissions from brake pads that we currently see.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I wouldn't disagree with that, but I still think that you have to take account of the fact that electric vehicles are not carbon neutral. They're part of the solution more than part of the problem.
But I really think that we absolutely have to keep on debating this issue in order to make it higher up on the agenda, because it simply isn't registering at the moment sufficiently in people's conscience that we absolutely have to change the way we are doing things. So, we certainly need to pay much greater attention to this matter, because if we had as many people dying on the roads as we do having their lives shortened by air pollution, we'd have a lot more people demanding change.

Delyth Jewell AC: What's more fundamental than the air that we breathe? It's something we should be able to take for granted as a human right, and the fact that we have to have this debate today, I'm afraid, is a damning indictment of the Government's record. We know that, in order to live healthily, everyone should have access to clean, unpolluted drinking water and nourishing food that isn't poisoned. Even then, human beings can live for weeks without food, and without water for days, but it's very difficult to go for more than a few minutes without breathing, and that air should be clean. So it's shocking—it's utterly shocking—that today, in the twenty-first century, as we've already heard, air pollution contributes to around 2,000 deaths a year in Wales, equating to around 6 per cent of all deaths.
That an opposition party has to call a debate in our Parliament to implore our Government—a Government that prides itself and calls itself progressive and caring in many ways—to take action to grant this human right of providing clean air to our citizens is staggering. The terrible effect that air pollution has on the health of children in particular is heartbreaking, and we've heard some of this already. It just isn't right that some children are born already suffering from the effects of air pollution, essentially having been poisoned in the womb. According to Joseph Carter, the head of British Lung Foundation Wales, air pollution has a particularly harmful effect on the developing lungs of children being brought up in Wales. That isn't a legacy we should accept. I agree with Mr Carter when he said. 'We need action now', because the current system obviously isn't working or we wouldn't be having this debate.
The Welsh Government is reticent when it comes to taking a leading role, and that leaves local authorities in control, and patchy results. The most polluted road in the UK outside London is actually in my region, in Hafodyrynys. Now, the local authority, despite passing a clean air motion that was brought forward by Plaid Cymru with cross-party support, failed to act decisively, arguing that to do so would be too costly in the time of austerity. The situation, in the end, was so bad that the only thing that could be done was to buy up all the houses on that road in order to demolish them.
Another recent example was seen last summer when Bridgend council approved a housing development next to an air quality management area, where the planning officers argued that their 2013 local development plan carried greater legal weight than the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Now, I'd ask the Minister what the point is of having world-leading legislation that can be ignored by local planning officers. Currently, a housing development is being considered by the same council that requires a new road to rip through local woodland; a development that officers sold to the relevant committee as a green project that meets active travel standards. So that's where we're at at the moment.The Welsh Government, as far as I'm aware, has only intervened once in order to impose central control over air pollution, and that was in Neath Port Talbot air quality management area. That has resulted in a reduction of harmful particulate matter pollutants. But clearly, one intervention is only one small step when what we need is a Wales-wide step change.
So what needs to happen? Clearly, the Welsh Government needs to take decisive action on this, rather than having yet more consultations. The Scottish Government published its clean air strategy five years ago, yet here in Wales the Labour Government is lagging behind. I read the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs's statement from December promising yet another consultation, and I'm afraid that the lack of ambition there is just palpable. The consultation talks of taking World Health Organization clean air guidelines into account, rather than simply implementing them. It couches environmental ambitions in deference to economic growth. Surely, building a successful economy and reducing air pollution are not mutually exclusive aims. As we've already heard, economists will tell us that pollution actually costs the economy by stifling growth and lost productivity, not to mention the consequences to public health.
The Welsh Government should bring forward clean air legislation during this term, again, as the First Minister promised to do in his leadership manifesto. It's time we had actions not words, and we should use the legislation that already existsto greater effect. The well-being of future generations Act is an ideal vehicle, if you'll forgive the horrible pun, for setting ambitious national goals with a statutory footing.
We know that road transport is the primary pollutant, so let's see a comprehensive and ambitious national green transport plan that uses electric or hybrid vehicles so that we can see a fall in the level of pollutants in our air before the end of this Senedd term. I urge the Welsh Government today, don't just wave through this motion and continue with business as usual. Heed the words of the British Lung Foundation Wales: we need action now.

Caroline Jones AC: I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue, as poor air quality is one of the biggest public health challenges facing Wales. Last week, the media spoke about all-electric vehicles and not selling petrol cars after 2035. Whilst we all welcome this move, we must ensure that the infrastructure is right, that cars are affordable and that incentives such as scrappage schemes are to be offered to people in the hope that they will convert sooner, as people are 21 times more likely to die from road pollution deaths than road traffic accidents.
Parts of the region I represent, South Wales West, has some of the dirtiest air in the UK. PM10 is often well above the safe daily limit, and schools in my region have had many days when it was double the safe daily limit, and this is totally unacceptable. The Healthy Air Cymru group are calling for new World Health Organization guidelines to be enshrined in legislation as soon as possible. King's College London found that cutting air pollution by even one fifth in the UK's most polluted cities would reduce the number of lung cases by 5 to 7 per cent.
The cause of most poor air quality-related deaths is from legal levels of air pollution. We must, surely, provide a statutory duty on local authorities to appropriately monitor and assess air pollution. King's College London has also found that for children who live near a busy road, air pollution can stunt lung growth by as much as 14 per cent. And living near a busy road can increase the chances of developing lung cancer by as much as 10 per cent.
In Wales, 314,000 people—one in ten—are currently receiving treatment for asthma. Current pollution guidelines are insufficient, with 19 per cent of all cases of childhood asthma in the UK linked to air pollution. Air pollutants are to blame for the deaths of at least five people per day in Wales, with the biggest contributor being transport.
The UK Labour Government incentivised a switch to diesel cars. Due to this, the amount of particulates and nitrogen dioxide in our atmosphere has increased dramatically. Also due to this, many people purchased diesel cars in good faith, only to be later penalised by higher road taxes, with people unable to change due to the current expense of electric vehicles—this must be looked at. Therefore, there must be incentives for people to change, financially.The Welsh Government needs to take action to reduce road-traffic congestion, which, again, amplifies pollution. Our planning system must take into account the effect that new developments will have on traffic congestion, as well as being mindful of electric charging points on new developments.
The Welsh Government must develop a strategy to tackle poor air quality. There needs to be a reporting system to alert residents of poor air quality, and this must be done at a national level and not left to local health boards. New developments, such at the British-made Sentinel-5P satellite, which monitors air pollutants, can be utilised at national level to improve forecasting, and be used to warn the public about such events. The Welsh and UK Governments need to work together and act on this urgently.
I look forward to seeing the Welsh Government's clean air plans, and I hope we can all work together on this matter. Thank you.

Hefin David AC: In preparation for this debate, I read the 'Clean Air Plan for Wales' consultation document, and I also had a meeting with Public Health Wales to talk through some of the issues that are in the motion. And having done that, framing Public Health Wales as independent experts, I don't share the pessimism of Plaid Cymru, but I do welcome some of the words that are in the motion. So, I support the thrust of the motion but I don't feel as pessimistic, and I reflect on Jenny Rathbone's optimism, actually, that the Welsh Government will engage and have a clean air Act before the end of this Assembly term. I think that's likely to happen.

Hefin David AC: The 'Clean Air Plan for Wales' consultation document has public health running through it. It doesn't just talk about carbon reduction, it doesn't just talk about impact on environmental standards; it also talks about quality of life, and it talks about preventing life-limiting illness and death. So, there's certainly a thread in that plan that chimes with the motion, and the motion itself clearly recognises the impact on life and the need to address the issue, and I think the Minister herself is likely to tell us Welsh Government plans for a clean air Act. I am optimistic about that.
The other issue is the 2,000 deaths a year quote. It isn't quite as stark as that according to Public Health Wales—or not quite as simple. The current Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants methods consider the pollutant mix in air that identifies reductions in life expectancy that can be aggregated then to a range of between 1,000 and 1,400 deaths a year in Wales. So, it isn't quite as simple as saying 2,000 people a year will die as a result of air pollution; it's an aggregated measure based on life expectancy, which itself demonstrates the difficulty in measuring the impacts of air quality and the fact that it is currently not entirely a science.
That comes back to something Rhun ap Iorwerth said: we need to be better at monitoring the impacts of air quality. Monitoring is something that can and must be done more thoroughly. Whether it can be done continually outside schools—. I'll give you an example. When I was a councillor, in my council ward, we had air quality monitoring over a period of six months. The cost was enormous; there was a huge cost to air quality monitoring. I think what you need to consider is the best deployment of resources in areas of highest risk. So, Llyr, the area in your region that you mentioned, that is an area that is ripe for air quality monitoring, and we need to consider those areas and then model appropriately afterwards.
I think, actually, when you've monitored—it's not just about monitoring, it's what actions you're going to take, and I think that is where the debate is now: what actions are you going to take? And I don't think it's whether we have a clean air Act, but what the clean air Act is going to set out to do. I think that is the key question, and that is what the constructive part of this debate should be about: what is that clean air Act trying to achieve?
Well, the Environment Act 1995 puts a duty on local authorities to come up with a local air quality management plan. The problem with it is that it requires local authorities to identify problems working with others and it requires them to produce action plans, but that's it; it doesn't require, then, for the implementation of those actions to be monitored and scrutinised by politicians or anyone else. So, there are issues with that that a clean air Act can address.
The local context needs to be considered. If we are having strict thresholds, context is vital. If we're having strict thresholds, then those thresholds may be most effective in areas where there are more vulnerable people, but then if you are very strict across a huge geographical area, it raises issues of attainability. And there needs to be, I think, through Stages 1 and 2 of the Bill, discussion around that attainability.  
And finally, some of the practical issues that might be the shortcomings of current actions that are being proposed outwith an Act, and that an Act will need to very clearly get to grips with. Getting to work is very, very difficult if you live outside of Cardiff; getting to work is incredibly difficult. People currently don't trust public transport. We use public transport; it is very, very untrustworthy. I've already said in this Chamber about my missing committee two weeks ago and feeling the wrath of the Chair who's sitting in front of me for missing committee. I had to beg Stagecoach to put on a bus from Bargoed to the Royal Gwent Hospital—I had to beg them. I had to beg Stagecoach to temporarily reinstate a bus to the Heath hospital, and what of the Grange hospital? What will public transport to the Grange hospital look like? There are questions around this that require more than a clean air Act; they require a bus deregulation Bill and they require a local government Act and, fortunately, we're seeing the Government taking action on that.  
Finally, I want to mention Twyn School in my constituency. Aneira Luff is a pupil at Twyn School, and she has taken action by writing to the headteacher, Lee Thomas, who has then communicated her letter to parents to ask them not to keep their cars idling outside school. Aneira Luff has done that—a pupil in school. I think that is an incredibly powerful way to communicate the need to reduce air emissions from cars outside schools. Jenny Rathbone has said the rest, and I agree with it. And I think, with that—Llywydd, you're looking at me now—my time's up. So, I'm going to have to call it to a halt there.

Dai Lloyd AC: I'm very pleased to take part in this debate, actually, and congratulations all round on the quality of the discourse. Plainly, as chair of the cross-party group on a clean air Act for Wales, I want to see an Act, basically, because I think we need urgent action now. The time has come for urgent action because this rim of air on top of this earth, of this planet, this rim of air that we all breathe, is only 10 miles deep. We have to look after it. When we're talking about inter-planetary travel and stuff, we're talking millions and millions of miles, but we depend, to breathe, on a rim of air that's just 10 miles deep. Certainly, we have to look after it and respect it.
Now, of course, going back in history, we've had original clean air Acts before. They reflected the suffocating fatal smogs and pea soupers in London in 1952 and other large cities in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. Legislation then followed to produce smokeless fuels. Obviously, the air cleaned, i.e. the air became clear, but there's still pollution there; the difference now is that we can't see it. So, our foot has literally gone off the pedal, because we're no longer being blinded by those pea soupers and smogs of yore. And, obviously, the other anomaly was that producing the smokeless fuels for London meant that we managed to transfer solid particulate air pollution that was in London to Abercwmboi in the Cynon Valley, which was tasked with producing the smokeless coke fuels instead in that infamous coking plant, plastering that valley with particulates instead of London.
Now, we've declared a climate emergency, as we've all heard, and we have the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and we have serious levels of air pollution damaging health and killing people now, today. I accept Hefin's point: it's an inexact science. This has started in the environmental health field, it is slow to have got into the public health and health fields. Always, we have environment leading the charge, which is fine—somebody needs to lead the charge—but health should be involved as well. The figure is 2,000 deaths—2,000 premature deaths—per year in Wales. We have increasing asthma levels; we have increasing—[Interruption.]

Hefin David AC: That isn't—. As I said in my contribution, that wasn't the figure that Public Health Wales gave me. They said the 1,000 to 1,400 aggregated range was based on life expectancy. So, the 2,000 deaths isn't currently—it's not a set-in-stone figure; the public health advice is the one that I've proposed.

Dai Lloyd AC: I accept the point. That's why I said 'premature deaths'—earlier than anticipated because you have a chronic lung condition and you add particulates and whatever on top of that, and off we go.
So, we have increasing chronic obstructive pulmonary disease; we have also the legacy of pneumoconiosis from the miners; silicosis from our quarry workers; asbestosis still around; we have increasing levels of idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis—'idiopathic' is Latin for, 'We don't know the cause', I suspect it's going to turn out to be air pollution, largely caused by our cavalier attitude to air pollution over the generations; inhaled PM2.5 particles are killers; nitrogen dioxide is also a killer; and nanoparticles of plastics from rubber tyres can get absorbed into our blood system, into our circulatory system and heart.
So, as I've said, I personally favour legislation. There's nothing like the back-up of the law to make sure that people act rather than having non-binding plans, however well-meaning. A clean air Act to enshrine in law World Health Organization air quality guidelines; a clean air Act to mandate Welsh Government to produce a statutory air quality strategy every five years; a clean air Act to provide a legal statutory duty on local authorities to monitor air pollution, to assess air pollution, to take air pollution seriously, to take action against it and to take seriously air pollution concerns in planning applications; and we need a clean air Act to introduce the right to breathe whereby local councils have to tell vulnerable groups when certain levels are breached, because you are likely to fall ill and you may die prematurely.
And so, finally, as everybody bleats that the health service costs are increasing amounts of money year on year, nobody believes in investing in changing behaviour to stop people getting ill in the first place. No, we just disparage the NHS for needing more money all of the time. We just slag off the NHS for hoovering up money when the health service has to tackle the problems that Governments should stop happening in the first place. The NHS has to pick up the pieces.
So, we have an obesity epidemic that causes increasing diabetes and increasing cancers; we don't legislate in schools for increased physical activity or ban advertising on junk foods. We could channel a Welsh sugar tax to this education agenda; we don't. But don't slag off health for having to deal with the consequences of inaction in other portfolio fields. And as regards air pollution, yes, legislate to form a clean air Act to tackle those increasing asthma rates, to tackle the suffering from COPD, those increasing levels of idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, the damage to growing children's lungs, and, yes, those thousands of premature deaths caused by particulates and nitrogen dioxide. As Andrew R.T. Davies said, we no longer tolerate dirty water, we should no longer tolerate dirty air.
So, in closing, the Welsh Government has been tasked with reducing emissions in the quickest way possible after being found in breach of EU regulations two years ago. Sort it out now. There's a plan, there's a White Paper, and perhaps legislation in 18 months. The challenge is stark. The time is now. Diolch, Llywydd.

John Griffiths AC: I very much welcome this debate today, and I echo what Dai Lloyd said. I think it has been a very good and powerful debate, and rightly so, because we're talking about public health, and it's clear that air quality is a major factor in whether we enjoy the sort of good public health that we want to see in Wales or not. And, yes, Healthy Air Cymru have done a lot of research, I think, and put some of the facts and statistics before all of us, which clearly show the adverse health impacts that we are currently living with. And it is the biggest environmental risk to public health—air quality, or the lack of it—and there's also research that it affects our most deprived communities disproportionately. So, there's an adverse health impact on the people who are most vulnerable anyway.
So, we've moved, really, into a largely post-industrial society in Wales, Llywydd, and I think that does clearly make road traffic the biggest challenge when it comes to dealing with these matters. And primarily, it's a matter, I think, of Welsh Government working with our local authorities to take effective action and make sure that appropriate strategies and policies are in place. We've talked about some of the legislation, some of the plans, and the Act that will hopefully be forthcoming. But there's lots that can be done, of course, here and now, very practical measures to deal with these issues.
We heard about the school run earlier, and I think that is significant and important, and there are practical measures that are being taken in schools across Wales that could be taken right across the length and breadth of our country. So, the roads around schools could be closed off at picking up and dropping off times. There could be policies for walking buses, for scooting, walking and cycling to school, engaging the pupils, as Hefin David mentioned, in putting moral pressure on parents and schools. I think it's very effective and appropriate.
Idling vehicles shouldn't be allowed at school gates and shouldn't be allowed in general in our urban areas. Taxis and buses are a major issue. There are many ways of converting taxis to more—[Interruption.] In just a minute. I was just going to say that converting taxis and buses, of course, that's happening, but that, again, could happen all across Wales, and that would make a significant contribution also. Hefin David.

Hefin David AC: I'm sorry to interrupt, but one of the things—he makes the point about idling vehicles—one of the points that I've heard as well, from public health officials, is it isn't just idling vehicles; the actual act of turning off your vehicle while outside a school could be just as polluting when you turn it back on again. So, you might as well leave it idling as turning it off and on in many cases; it depends how long you leave it idling for. So, actually, the more effective thing is, as Jenny Rathbone said, not to have those cars near the school in the first place.

John Griffiths AC: I think that is the most effective thing, but I think you often see idling engines for minutes and minutes and minutes, and turning them off would be a very good idea. But I applaud the fact that you've met with Public Health Wales, Hefin,and, obviously, that's been very informative from your contributions and thoughts on these matters.
But, yes, we also spoke earlier, didn't we, about electric cars, and certainly I've heard from public health experts that they are very welcome, as we've heard, but, yes, there still are issues with particulate matter and brakes and tyres. So, we need to get people out of their cars, even with electric cars or hydrogen cars coming into being in far greater numbers. So, we must address the public transport issues. We've got to make the metro much more appealing much more quickly. We've got to get bus deregulation delivering better planned bus services that help people make that modal shift.
And, of course, we have the active travel Act now in being in Wales for some four years and the action plan. Yet, we've still not seen the shift to cycling and walking for short everyday journeys that we need to see, even though local authorities have been working up some of their network plans, Welsh Government has made an additional £20 million per annum available and local authorities can knit active travel into their wider transport strategies in addition to that.
So, I really would like to see, I think, Welsh Government looking very carefully at how it can take an overview and work with local authorities in Wales more effectively on the active travel front. The funding is available, but it's not always being used to best effect. Some of the money is still being used more for leisure purposes, rather than active travel and purposeful journeys. I think Welsh Government, in making that funding available, also has a responsibility to work very closely with local authorities to ensure that that funding is delivering the modal shift that we need to see.

Neil McEvoy AC: Nobody can disagree with this motion, but the issue is that Labour Government policies are causing—and I say, present tense, are causing—air pollution. If we look at local development plans right across Wales, just take one, the Cardiff local development plan, for an example. That plan, passed by the council, nothing done about it here in this Senedd, is putting 10,000 extra cars on one single carriageway—one single road—Llantrisant Road in Cardiff West. There will be 10,000 extra cars every single day if that full development plan goes ahead.
Now, LDPs are Government policy. There has been no change. Unfortunately, when Plaid Cymru were in Government, they were responsible for signing off the most ridiculous—the most ridiculous—population figures, allowing the roll-out of LDPs right across Wales. So, both parties, neither of them have a clean pair of hands there.
This seems—[Interruption.] No, sorry. This seems to be a typical motion from the Labour-Plaid cartel in Welsh politics, because what we are talking about here—and it is a cartel. It is a cartel. Labour has run this country for the last 20 years, sometimes with the help—[Interruption.] It would not surprise me at all if the aim, next time around, would be to run it with you guys in coalition.
The main thing here is that we need Government policies that do not cause air pollution—that do not cause air pollution. If one of the AMs from Cardiff want to contribute, I'll give way through the Chair, if she allows, and maybe explain to the people of this country why they've not opposed the local development plans that have gone through in the most outrageous manner.
Ninety per cent of the people in this city did not want the Cardiff local development plan, but it went through. So, before we stand here and talk about air pollution and isn't it awful—of course it is—we really need to address the policies. Local development plans causing huge pollution should be dealt with, and they should be dealt with as a matter of emergency. You say there's a climate emergency—do something about it. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhianon Passmore AC: As the Assembly Member for Islwyn, I have from the very first day I was elected to the Senedd, as have others, campaigned to reduce air pollution in my constituency and across Wales. Improving air quality is a priority for the Welsh Labour Government, as the draft budget outlines. The Welsh Government's national strategy, 'Prosperity for All', commits the Welsh Government to reducing emissions and delivering vital improvements in air quality through planning, infrastructure, regulation and health communication measures. The Welsh Labour Government is currently consulting on the clean air plan for Wales, 'Healthy Air, Healthy Wales', which set out ambitious actions across all Government departments and sectors to reduce air pollution. The present consultation on this, the most important of plans, seeks to raise public awareness about air pollution and behaviour change communications, as well as mitigations to help everyone improve air quality and encourage others to do so. It is absolutely right that good policy is not rushed policy, and that it is optimum. The Government is right in its approach, and a knee-jerk methodology is not the way forward.
As Members will know, and as has been mentioned, in Islwyn sits Woodside Terrace in the village of Hafodyrynys, one of our nation's most polluted streets. The truth is, as everyone who lives there will say, the answers are not simple. They're not connected into one single sphere. Nitrogen dioxide levels on this road have been recorded as the highest in the United Kingdom outside of central London, but there is an issue, and that is because they have been recorded. We do not know where the next Hafodyrynys is. With the positive partnership working between the Labour-run Caerphilly county council and local residents, and the Welsh Labour Government, a solution has been reached after complex and far-reaching negotiations in the public policy and governmental spheres.
The British Heart Foundation today have launched a fresh campaign to draw public attention to the vital issue of air pollution. And although we cannot see it with the naked eye, it is fine particulate matter, as has been stated previously, known as PM2.5, which offers that serious threat to public health. We know that this issue needs to be tackled at every level of Government and in every arena of public and civic life, from local councils to the Welsh Assembly to Westminster and the UK Government, as well as international inter-governmental organisations. This week, the UK was forced to announce plans to ban the sale of petrol, diesel and hybrid cars by 2035—a little earlier than originally planned. Yes, this is welcome news, but the devil is in the detail here. It is imperative that the UK Government must come forward with detailed plans on how this will be delivered, including publishing a concrete set of milestones to be achieved ahead of 2035, accelerating the transition to zero emission road transport in the UK.
We are not an island in this regard. We need to remember that the UK will not be in the vanguard of change in these matters. Norway has a phase-out target of 2025 while the Netherlands, the Irish Republic, Sweden and Denmark have all set a 2030 deadline. In truth, the UK Tory Government proposal will only cover wholly new cars. How many of your constituents can afford a brand-new car?
A recent study by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers forecast that 37.1 million petrol and diesel cars would still be on the road in 2020 and 22.6 million by 2040. That's not good enough. So there is much that the UK Tory Government needs to do if the UK is to hit—I've nearly finished—its target of net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. They would do well to follow the enthusiastic, energetic and imaginative leadership on this vital issue by the Labour Government here in Cardiff. The £140 million alone in the draft budget this year is just the start of an ambitious sea change in Welsh cultural attitude and policy shift in Wales.I hope that it does gain the consistent cross-party support that seems to be relevant in this Chamber today, but there are those in this Chamber who do not believe in climate change and I would urge them very much to open their eyes and see what's in front of them. Thank you, Llywydd.

I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to be responding to this debate on behalf of the Government. We do need both decisive Government action as well as legislation in order to achieve clean air across Wales, and Welsh Government is committed to bringing forward a clean air Act for Wales. The current consultation on our clean air plan is a major step towards that new legislation.
I welcome the fact there is a clear recognition across this Senedd of the need for decisive action by both the Welsh Government and the UK Government. We all recognise the health impacts and the significant improvements we can make to Wales's well-being by reducing air pollution. This is reflected both in point 1 of the Plaid Cymru motion and the Welsh Conservatives' amendment 2, which refers to the long-term health effects of air pollution. And the Government will support both amendments.
The claim made at point 2 of the Plaid Cymru motion is not correct. There are not large areas of Wales in which air quality is not monitored. However, we do agree with the need to increase monitoring, and the Government amendment calls for a new monitoring network to complement our existing capabilities. Over the next two years, we will be increasing the number of monitors, particularly focusing on monitoring air quality in those places where we know people are more vulnerable to pollution, including schools and health facilities.
To drive decisive action, we have to be clear on the responsibilities and the action needed. We need new legislation, but we also need to act now to use the legislation we already have in place and all the other levers available. This is why the Government amendment's point 3 calls on both Welsh Government and UK Government to strengthen all measures described in the original motion and to use legislation where necessary.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Will you take an intervention?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I just wondered if you've thought of having any conversation with the UK Government about removing VAT from electric vehicles, because that's not something that we have the powers to do, and that would enable them to be promoted by making them cheaper.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think the Member makes a very good point and certainly I, or my colleague Ken Skates, would be very interested in having that conversation.
The Government will not support the Conservatives' amendments 4 and 5, but this is on the basis they are confusing key issues and would dilute, rather than strengthen, the measures we need to take. We support the sentiment that new legislation should apply World Health Organization guidelines. To do this, we will translate the principles of the guidance into the Act, rather than inserting the guidelines themselves on the face of the Bill. That will ensure the targets we set in Wales are designed according to the highest global standards.
Similarly, we support the right to breathe, but our responsibility is to translate this into legislation that is specific and can be actioned. So, as I said, we'll oppose those amendments, but we would encourage Members to look at the measures we have already proposed in our clean air plan—and several Members referred to the document—which are more strict and tightly focused. The consultation does run, Presiding Officer, until 10 March, and it describes actions related to each point in the original motion and more. And I'd like to take this opportunity to provide detail of just some of the steps we are taking in these areas in the coming months, as we work towards the creation of a clean air Act for Wales.
Members will be aware that Welsh Government has introduced measures to reduce air pollution from traffic on Wales's trunk road network. Early indications are these are having a positive impact, but, in the coming weeks, we will publish our report, which will contain the evidence of effectiveness and recommendations of any further steps we need to take to reduce pollution created and the impact on people's health. In parallel, I will shortly publish a clean air zone framework for Wales to set out how we believe clean air zones should be implemented in Wales. Later in the year, my colleague the Minister for Economy and Transport will also publish a separate report on the costs and benefits of introducing road-user charging on a regional basis to ensure we take a fair and consistent approach to reducing people's exposure to air pollution from road traffic. And, in addition, we intend to publish a charging strategy for Wales in 2020, which sets out the steps we will take to increase the provision of electric vehicle charging infrastructure.
These plans will feed into a new transport strategy for Wales, also due for publication this year. The strategy will explain how we intend to realise our ambition for a low-carbon transport system, including the achievement of a low-carbon bus and taxi fleet by 2028. As well as providing benefits in reducing our carbon emissions, this will also lead directly to a significant reduction in air pollution.
In addition to our efforts to address air pollution from road traffic, we are taking a wide range of other measures to reduce emissions and give meaning to Welsh citizens' right to breathe. This year, we'll update the Air Quality in Wales website to make it more interactive and user-friendly, to encourage more Welsh citizens to access information about air quality in their area.We're also looking to build on the Young Dragons citizens science initiative in which we've engaged children and young people in making a serious contribution to the evidence base on air pollution, at the same time as giving them a hands-on opportunity to learn more about the science.
We're currently in the process of strengthening our air quality emergency response capability, working with NRW, the fire service and the Met Office, so we are able to respond to more incidents more quickly, providing more accurate information to citizens in the event of serious air pollution events.
This year, we will publish new planning guidance with an updated technical advice note on air quality and soundscape to replace TAN 11 on noise. This will ensure that new development design addresses exposure to air pollution before issues arise.
In March, Natural Resources Wales will publish area statements, a key milestone in the implementation of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. By defining the key opportunities and challenges for strengthening the resilience of ecosystems in different parts of Wales, the area statements will allow us to maximise the positive benefits for nature at the same time as making a positive impact on air quality and other aspects of our well-being.
So, these are just a few examples of the action we are taking now to improve air quality in Wales. In all cases, there may be opportunities to strengthen the effectiveness of these measures through our clean air Act, and I hope all parties will support the Government amendment today to show our combined determination on a cross-party basis to take decisive action to drive down air pollution in Wales, and give real meaning to Wales's citizens right to breathe.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to respond to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I thank everyone who has taken part in a debate that has genuinely been a constructive one this afternoon. I thank Andrew R.T. Davies first. I'm pleased to hear him echo the view I aired about the contrast between the lack of urgency towards tackling the problem of air pollution—the contrast between that and the expectation for urgent action if it was something else that claimed so many lives. And you are right as well to say that dirty water at one time had been considered acceptable, in a previous age. And the solution now, in moving forward, is a clean air Act, in order to ensure that we move to thinking about the air that we breathe in the same way.
Llyr Gruffydd also made the point that the severity of the problem isn't reflected in the severity and the urgency of the Government's response. I'm grateful to Llyr for referring to that situation in Chirk, and the realisation there has been in the community there that we have to tackle the severe pollution that they live with, and the need for much more detailed monitoring. And the solution is a clean air Act.
From Jenny Rathbone, urban pollution was chiefly referred to by the Cardiff Central Member. Our children in our cities and towns are in danger—it's as simple as that—because of pollution, pollution from vehicles mainly, in the examples we heard about. John Griffiths also spoke specifically about traffic from the school run and the danger emanating from that. We have to monitor in detail on order to measure far better what is happening outside our schools, and the solution once again is a clean air Act.
And Dai Lloyd—

Nick Ramsay AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Certainly.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thanks for giving way, Rhun. I quite agree with you and other Members that a clean air Act is certainly a positive way to go, but would you agree with me that we've had Acts such as the active travel Act before, and, of course, the future generations Act, all of which are well meaning and have a good basis for the future, but, if you don't actually have those practical measures on the ground and those proper monitoring devices and mechanisms in place to feed back when things aren't working, then, actually, progress is terribly slow and you have to revisit these Acts over and over again? So, would you agree that we need some teeth to this on the ground?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I agree with you, and there are other legislative tools that we have that can help take us to where we want to go, and the well-being of future generations Act is one of those. What we would have through this clean air Act is a real focus on a particular job that we need to do in cleaning up the air that we breathe, and it has to be legislation that certainly would have teeth and would demand action on the ground.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Dai Lloyd mentioned in more detail the impact that pollution has on our bodies, and why this is such an urgent issue. Delyth Jewell was right to think of breathing clean air as a basic human right, and Caroline Jones was right to say that this is one of the biggest challenges that face us in terms of public health. I listened very carefully to the comments made by Hefin David. We are not being pessimistic, I don't think, but ready to realise the severity of the situation as it stands today. That's what I heard from the debate here in the Chamber. In terms of the figure, and the dispute about the figures of 2,000 early deaths per year, and then between 1,000 and 1,400, I think, which is the figure that you mentioned, I will quote from a paper that was presented to the Cabinet of the Welsh Government in January 2018. So, here are the most recent figures that the Welsh Government have been using:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'Public Health Wales estimates that the equivalent of around 1,600 deaths are attributable to fine particulate matter...exposure and around 1,100 deaths to nitrogen dioxide...exposure each year in Wales.'
So, actually, the Government figures that we are given from that paper given to Cabinet are actually higher than quoted originally by us and by yourself.

Hefin David AC: That was based on individual particulates, and the estimate of individual particulates. What the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants analysis does is combine those particulates into what is a more realistic estimate of the kind of particulates that will exist in the air at any one time, which is where the figures for 1,000 to 1,400 come from.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I appreciate the detail into which you have gone to evidence yourself where we believe the harm is and what effect it's having.

Hefin David AC: Yes, there's no dispute—there's no dispute about that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The point I would make—. You know, at the heart of this is that hundreds of people, probably thousands of people—in excess of a million people in a country like China—are dying every year as a direct result of air pollution, and, if that isn't something that is urgent enough to spur us into action, what could possibly be enough to drive us on? A clean air Act, certainly in our opinion, forms a core part of what we need as a set of tools to take us forward.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We can always rely, fair play, on the consistent tone expressed by the independent Member for South Wales Central, and the Member for Islwyn. Rhianon Passmore made a completely uncritical contribution on the Labour Government's actions. No-one else in this Chamber, including the Minister, thinks that everything is being done as well as it could be.
I will go back now to the comments that we heard from the Minister. I do welcome the commitment to legislate, and I welcome the fact that the commitment has been made today in response to a motion that we've put before the Senedd today. That's why we do these motions—in order to push the Government to make these commitments. I welcome commitments that aren't legislative too—to increase the monitoring over the next few years, to create clean air zones and so forth, and I do agree with what was said clearly by the Minister:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We need to act now, using the powers we already have.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Of course, you are entirely right about that. But frustration that there's not enough action is what's behind the fact that we have put this motion before the Assembly today. Without doubt, even though there are other levers that can be used now and in the future, we believe that a clean air Act must be at the core of what we do to clean the air that our children breathe in Wales, and, in that sense, I urge you to support our motion today.

The proposal is to agree the motion unamended. Does any Member object? [Objection.]I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. We move to the voting time, and the first vote is on the Member's legislative proposal an electric vehicle charging points. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of David Melding. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 34, 11 abstentions, one against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

NDM7239 - Debate on Members’ Legislative Proposal: For: 34, Against: 1, Abstain: 11
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is a vote on the Plaid Cymru debate on air pollution. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

NDM7264 - Plaid Cymru Debate - Motion without amendment: For: 9, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is an amendment 1. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, nine against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

NDM7264 - Amendment 1: For: 37, Against: 9, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

A vote now on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 46, no abstentions, one against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

NDM7264 - Amendment 2: For: 46, Against: 1, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 3 is the next vote. So, I call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, 12 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

NDM7264 - Amendment 3: For: 35, Against: 12, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 4 is the next amendment. I call for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 17, three abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is not agreed.

NDM7264 - Amendment 4: For: 17, Against: 27, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 5: I call for a vote on amendment 5, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, three abstentions, 34 against. Therefore, amendment 5 is not agreed.

NDM7264 - Amendment 5: For: 10, Against: 34, Abstain: 3
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7264 as amended:
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Believes that air pollution is a public health crisis, which contributes to an estimated 2,000 deaths a year in Wales.
2. Calls for a new national air pollution monitoring network that complements Wales’ existing monitoring capabilities.
3.Further notes that air pollution exacerbates existing lung conditions and is a cause of asthma and lung cancer, and that the long-term impacts of poor air quality are not yet fully understood.
4. Calls for a clean air act for Wales, and for Welsh Government and UK Government to take decisive action to strengthen all measures, using legislation where necessary, to:
a) give communities the right to have pollution-monitoring equipment outside of schools and hospitals;
b) create infrastructure that would enable local authorities to introduce pollution and congestion charges where appropriate,
c) reform the planning process to require the impact of a development on air pollution to be given greater weight in the planning system;
d) accelerate the transition to an electric transport system so that petrol and diesel cars are phased out by 2030.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 42, one abstention, four against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

NDM7264 - Plaid Cymru Debate Motion as amended: For: 42, Against: 4, Abstain: 1
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

10. Short Debate: What is the future for council farms?

The short debate is next. So, if those Members who are leaving the Chamber could do so quickly and quietly, before I call Llyr Gruffydd to introduce his short debate. I do call on Llyr Gruffydd to introduce the short debate in his name.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Ten years ago, Welsh councils owned almost 1,000 smallholdings, which were let out to give opportunities to young farmers to gain entry into the farming industry. The latest statistics we have show that councils—and one does recognise this—that are under huge financial pressures because of austerity have been selling those assets off, and very often, as we recognise, in order to maintain core public services. But over the past seven years, over 1,000 hectares of land has been sold by councils, for a total of almost £28 million. There are now fewer than 500 farms with external buildings throughout Wales, and there is no sign that the rate of disposal is reducing or slowing down either.
The situation is even more extreme in England. Half of council-owned farmland has been sold off over the past decade, and many councils see their farms as things of the past. That toxic combination, of austerity and an unwillingness by some councils to be more creative and to innovate in order to develop new income streams or business models, is driving the decline of county farms. So, why is this important?

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Why is this important? Well, you may say that 16,000 hectares of land is insignificant in the wider scheme of things, but I want to make the case for its significance in ensuring a thriving future for farming in Wales.
Council-owned farms were developed more than a century ago to enable people without farming connections or land to work in agriculture. Now, I'd argue they're needed more than ever today, especially as we're seeing an ageing farming population, with the average age of Welsh farmers being over 60, and other circumstances conspiring to make it even more difficult for our younger generations to work the land.
So, these council farms offer a unique window of opportunity for those keen to enter agriculture. And whilst not decrying those with many years of experience in any way, it's always important for any industry or sector to allow new blood to come in with fresh ideas and new perspectives. Without innovation and change, agriculture, like any other sector, would stagnate.
It should also be remembered that there are economic incentives for councils too, as the rent from county farms contributes to council balances. Councils across Wales made a net surplus of £2.7 million last year to help balance budgets and protect front-line services. Productive and thriving council farms are beneficial, not just from a financial perspective, but they bring so many more wider benefits to whole communities.
So, let's put our council farms to work in a much more creative way. Why not strike up a partnership between councils and agricultural colleges to use council farms as an opportunity for the brightest and the best of our next generation of farming to farm the land? On the understanding that they innovate and that they test and trial new systems and farming methods as part of the deal. Let's hardwire new thinking and the promotion of best practice into the system. Let's put our public farm estate to work, not just for those farming individuals, but for wider society.
And why stop there? There are other organisations that need to be part of this discussion and part of this wider movement. Look at what the National Trust in Wales is doing at Llyndy Isaf. The farm was bought by the trust around 10 years ago now. Since then, working with the young farmers' clubs in Wales, a succession of young farmers have been given a bursary to make the farm work in a modern and sustainable way. Conservation farming is as much a part of this scheme as food production, which is very much in line with our aspirations for the sector. It's a fantastic opportunity for a young person aged between 18 and 25 to have the chance to manage a farm and to learn about the business, with the support and advice of mentors who are on hand to help if needed. Now, that was a conscious decision by the National Trust to put its asset to work in that particular way.
So, my challenge today is for us to enable councils to stop looking at council farms as a quick fix to their funding problems. Let's take that longer term, more sustainable view. Let's put the public farm estate to work much more creatively for society. If we're serious about the future of rural Wales, of making sure that young people are able to live and work in rural communities, and that our farming industry is fit for purpose for the challenges of the twenty-first century, then we have to say 'no' to short-termism. Is that not what the well-being of future generations Act is all about? Isn't that why we as a legislature made sustainable development a central organising principle of the public sector here in Wales?
We mustn't, therefore, stand idly by watching this drip, drip, drip of council farms disappearing without any thought being given to what we're losing. We should be turning every stone to support local councils to be able to resist the fire sale of such an important social, economic, environmental and cultural asset—the four cornerstones of sustainable development in Wales. The very least we can do is bring all the players together to consider how we can not only stem the loss of our public farm estate, but turn it into an asset that delivers for our rural communities and wider society across Wales.
So, with all that in mind, I call on the Welsh Government, working with the future generations commissioner, to get actively involved in this matter and bring all the players together to tackle this issue. Publicly owned farms should be part of a wider movement to ensure we have a sustainable farming industry at the heart of our rural communities. The relentless selling off of our farms is a short-term solution for hard-pressed councils, but we have to take a stand against it.
Future generations who wish to put a first foot on the farming ladder need our support. That's why I've worked with those aiming to keep farms such as Trecadwgan in the public realm. This is a council farm in danger of ending its life as a living, working farm and disposed of as an asset by Pembrokeshire County Council. Trecadwgan has the potential to be a model for the future, diversifying into a community farm. They are farms that successfully combine agriculture with areas such as health and care, cultural activities, lifelong learning, job creation, and artisan businesses. These can be the lifeblood of rural communities, adding to their sustainability, and of course to the well-being of their people.
Now, I'm pragmatic enough to accept that there may be certain circumstances where selling a council farm is the only viable option. Having tried everything else, if sale is the only remaining alternative, then let's make sure that local communities have first refusal, and let's do it in a way that affords those communities the time and the support they need to make that a realistic and a viable prospect. Yes, it might take a bit longer than it would otherwise and, yes, it might not generate as much cash upfront as councils would wish, but in the longer term it would reap so much more and provide so much greater value for the community and the council, compared to a quick sale. Welsh Government and councils should learn from the example of Trecadwgan farm and make sure that all communities have a chance to play their part when these opportunities arise.
Those involved in the fight for Trecadwgan have issued a list of necessary policy changes emerging from their battle. I believe that the Welsh Government should look closely at those suggestions. Amongst them is that the Welsh Government should create a land reform review group, similar to that operating in Scotland, with a brief to examine: the extent to which lack of access to land may cramp people's aspirations and opportunities; the impacts upon employment and the rural economy stemming from that; and ways in which access to land—both rural and urban, by the way—could and should be improved. They've also called for a review of the General Disposal Consent (Wales) Order, to give much greater weight to the interests of future generations, rather than just the best price in these situations.
We also need to consider a national community wealth fund, so that we can actually help acquire farmland for community ownership. In addition, there are calls on the Welsh Government to introduce a Welsh agricultural land bank—a financial bank. As well as providing low and zero-interest loans for new entrants, this land bank could provide finance for communities looking to purchase land and farms, including county farms. It could also help local authorities to buy new land to grow the county farm estate. Now, these are all practical proposals, and I'd be really interested in hearing what the Minister has to say about these kinds of suggestions.
The current trajectory of selling council farms just isn't acceptable. What's even less acceptable, of course, is the lack of action that we're seeing from Welsh Government, who should not only be helping and working with councils to protect this important asset, but also be making sure that it's used to maximise the benefit, not just for the sector, but for wider society. Safeguarding our land, our environment, our people and our culture are all bound up in having a vision and an ambition for our public farms.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The disappearance of council farms should be a cause for concern for the whole of society. It's an important foothold into the industry for new blood and a new generation of farmers. So, please, Minister, don't sit on your hands; work with the councils, not only to protect what remains, but to work towards creating a public farm estate that will excite the next generation to want to go into farming. Turn them into something that represents an opportunity, innovation and entrepreneurship. There is an opportunity, through our council farms, to drive growth in the sector. But at the moment, of course, what we see is managed decline. There is a duty on Government to change that, and it's a duty on us to ensure that the same opportunities exist for future generations as have existed for generations in the past.

The Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to respond to the debate. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and diolch, Llyr Huws Gruffydd, for bringing this short debate topic forward. I know you've got a longstanding interest in this area of agriculture.
Local authority farms are an important asset to the agricultural industry and remain an invaluable point of entry for many young people here in Wales. In the wider context of all agricultural land in Wales, they represent a small area, accounting for just 1 per cent of Welsh agricultural land. But they also play an important part in supporting the foundational economy in every part of Wales.
Every year, I publish, as part of my statutory duty under the Agriculture Act 1970, a report on the Welsh Government's activities, and the activities of local authorities, in relation to smallholdings in Wales.This report provides statistical information on the area and the number of smallholdings held by local authorities. The latest report published was for 2017-18 and it shows that Welsh local authorities hold just over 13,600 hectares of land for smallholding purposes, and that's divided into 963 smallholdings. So, the number of smallholdings has not changed significantly since 2009-10, when there were 967 smallholdings. What has changed is the total land area owned by local authorities and let as smallholdings. So, in 2010, around 7,700 hectares of land were let for this purpose. This means there was a reduction of around 23 per cent in the land devoted to local authority smallholdings between 2010 and 2018.
Although this is a significant reduction, I'd like to highlight what the figures mean for the central question of how we encourage new entrants into agriculture. The majority of new local authority tenancies in 2018 were granted to existing tenants. Of the 169 new tenancies granted, only 21 went to new entrants while 148 were given to existing tenants. In 2018, 61 per cent of local authority smallholdings were under 20 hectares in size and such small farms could not be expected to adequately support farmers financially and, as such, do not offer the best route into the sector for new entrants. The management of these farms is ultimately a matter for the local authorities in Wales. The Agriculture Act 1970 does not confer ministerial control over the local authorities' powers to sell land. The sale of land and decisions about how they approach it is for local authorities to consider and is not something the Welsh Government could intervene or have a role in.
Finding a way into farming, and Llyr Huws Gruffydd referred to this, can be a daunting prospect if you or your partner don't come from a farming family background or if the family farm isn't of sufficient scale to support a newcomer. Supporting young people to enter the industry and develop their careers is essential and something I've taken a personal interest in since I came into post. If we are going to introduce innovation, energy and enthusiasm into the sector and respond to the future challenges, local authority farms are an important and limited route into agriculture.
As part of the Welsh Government's Young People into Agriculture scheme, which was done with funding agreed with Plaid Cymru in a budget agreement a couple of years ago, we made £6 million available to support young people to enter the agricultural sector and establish profitable and resilient businesses. The funding was made available over two years in the form of working capital, which will offer the new entrants flexibility to invest in their business. It paid for a range of activities, including new technology and practices to improve efficiency, or developing new enterprises and income streams to build resilience within the business. And alongside these developments, applicants were required to develop their skills and knowledge and take positive actions to deliver positive benefits for the natural environment, supporting low-carbon agriculture and animal health.
We've also got the Venture programme, which is a service established to match farmers and landowners, who wish to take a step back from full-time farming, with new entrants looking for a route into the industry, and the creation of the scheme builds on the recommendations of the next generation into farming support.
In relation to the number of local-authority-owned farms, I think it's really important that we respect local authorities' ability to develop their own priorities for how they manage the assets for which they are responsible on behalf of the communities they represent. It is my belief that we should be looking at new opportunities for collaboration with and between local authorities, rather than looking to reduce the flexibility that local authorities have to take action in pursuit of local priorities, and Llyr referred to several aspects, I think, that we can look at to do that.
I do believe there are opportunities for new collaboration around how we use the land in the public sector that would not require new legislation or placing new restrictions on local authorities. My colleague the Minister for finance announced the creation of a Welsh Government land division—a collaborative effort across the public sector to change the way that we manage public sector land to strengthen delivery of our strategic priorities, including supporting action to address the climate and nature emergencies.
So, I really would encourage Members to take an interest in this initiative as it's clearly an opportunity that is directly relevant to the debate we're having today. But, as I say, I do hope we can further explore the ideas put forward by Llyr in this debate. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:49.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language

Hefin David: Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for scheduled ancient monuments of national importance?

Eluned Morgan: Scheduled monuments are afforded protection through designation. Cadw’s field monument wardens regularly monitor their condition and provide management advice to owners. Grant schemes can provide financial support for their upkeep and repair. Cof Cymru, Cadw’s online record of historic assets, gives the public information about these nationally important monuments.

Jayne Bryant: How is the Welsh Government supporting women and girls to participate in sport in Wales?

Eluned Morgan: The Welsh Government recognises that more needs to be done to close the participation gaps in sport. Good progress is being made with Sport Wales and its partners delivering a range of programmes across a number of sports, which are focused on encouraging more women and girls to take part.

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd

Jenny Rathbone: What strategies does the Minister have for safeguarding public procurement in light of the uncertainties over trade negotiations with the EU?

Rebecca Evans: We are engaging fully with the UK Government to ensure Wales's interests are represented in tree trade agreements, both with the EU and with other countries. We wish to see our procurement policies continue to enable economic growth, increased employment and deliver environmental priorities.

David Rees: What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the financial positions of health boards?

Rebecca Evans: As part of our regular discussions, I met the Minister for Health and Social Services earlier this week to discuss a range of financial matters within his portfolio, including the financial position of health boards.